this post was submitted on 17 Nov 2023
1312 points (97.5% liked)

News

23266 readers
3598 users here now

Welcome to the News community!

Rules:

1. Be civil


Attack the argument, not the person. No racism/sexism/bigotry. Good faith argumentation only. This includes accusing another user of being a bot or paid actor. Trolling is uncivil and is grounds for removal and/or a community ban. Do not respond to rule-breaking content; report it and move on.


2. All posts should contain a source (url) that is as reliable and unbiased as possible and must only contain one link.


Obvious right or left wing sources will be removed at the mods discretion. We have an actively updated blocklist, which you can see here: https://lemmy.world/post/2246130 if you feel like any website is missing, contact the mods. Supporting links can be added in comments or posted seperately but not to the post body.


3. No bots, spam or self-promotion.


Only approved bots, which follow the guidelines for bots set by the instance, are allowed.


4. Post titles should be the same as the article used as source.


Posts which titles don’t match the source won’t be removed, but the autoMod will notify you, and if your title misrepresents the original article, the post will be deleted. If the site changed their headline, the bot might still contact you, just ignore it, we won’t delete your post.


5. Only recent news is allowed.


Posts must be news from the most recent 30 days.


6. All posts must be news articles.


No opinion pieces, Listicles, editorials or celebrity gossip is allowed. All posts will be judged on a case-by-case basis.


7. No duplicate posts.


If a source you used was already posted by someone else, the autoMod will leave a message. Please remove your post if the autoMod is correct. If the post that matches your post is very old, we refer you to rule 5.


8. Misinformation is prohibited.


Misinformation / propaganda is strictly prohibited. Any comment or post containing or linking to misinformation will be removed. If you feel that your post has been removed in error, credible sources must be provided.


9. No link shorteners.


The auto mod will contact you if a link shortener is detected, please delete your post if they are right.


10. Don't copy entire article in your post body


For copyright reasons, you are not allowed to copy an entire article into your post body. This is an instance wide rule, that is strictly enforced in this community.

founded 1 year ago
MODERATORS
you are viewing a single comment's thread
view the rest of the comments
[–] [email protected] 17 points 11 months ago (2 children)
[–] [email protected] 30 points 11 months ago (3 children)

To be fair, I think one could argue with a straight face that if we're still buying the products, then we really don't care that much. Why should a company be motivated by morality if we as a society collectively aren't?

We should hold ourselves to the same standards or we're just hypocrites.

[–] [email protected] 12 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago)

If the only fridges on the market contain CFCs then people are going to buy them because they need fridges. If the only CFC-free fridges are more expensive than CFC ones then only affluent people, at most, are going to buy them.

It's called a market failure: There are costs associated with a product that are not taken into account because the regulatory regime doesn't make sure they are. In the case of CFCs we went even further than making fridge producers pay up for the externalities they cause (which would've been an astronomical sum) and right-out banned that stuff. The consumer, after all, is still saving money with CFC fridges (their food doesn't spoil as easily), they're not paying for the ozone hole, either.

See the free market is a theoretical model, it indeed promises prefect results given that all actors are perfectly rational and act on perfect information, the maths makes sense. Perfect rationality and information don't exist in the real world, though (and in fact ads and company secrets exist to degrade the information available to everyone) so we need regulations to fix market failures so that the real-world market comes closer to approximating the free market. Misunderstanding of this point brought to you by peddlers of institutionalised market failure equivocating "free market" and "unregulated market".

The EU tends to have a good grasp on it, the US, boy oh boy.

[–] [email protected] 7 points 11 months ago (2 children)

In principle I'm inclined to agree, however isn't this glossing over the degree to which markets are consolidated?

You try to opt out of products/services and choose more ethical alternatives, but it turns out the most readily available alternatives are in some way connected to the same unethical parent company. Ultimately the individualistic approach to addressing these matters is untenable and requires collective action in some form (ideally it would be leveraging a government that reflects the interests of the people).

[–] [email protected] 8 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago)

And those companies have spent a ton of time and effort discouraging and preventing people from collectivizing via union busting. There's a huge power asymmetry at play here, an individual should not be held to the same standard of accountability as the people who literally control the economy through non-democratic or straight up unelected positions of leadership (board of investors or private CEOs respectively). They can, at any moment, choose to reduce their profit margin for the betterment of the planet - but they don't, because as a small group of owners, they exist to profit so they would never agree to do so in a meaningful way*. And because they're collectivised and we're not (just look at the swathe of antitrust cases where businesses that are supposed to compete, have instead chosen to act like a cartel), they hold almost all the power. Let's focus our attention away from blaming the average person, and onto the real root cause so that we can actually collectivise against that root cause rather than fight amongst each other.

*: without the state straight up socialising their risk, for example the green tech grants and loans we have been and are giving out, all over the world. Something Elon Musk is very familiar with, given that Tesla might not have existed today without the generous $465 million government loan they got in 2009.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago) (1 children)

"Opting out" doesn't mean you "opt in" to whatever forced you to "opt out" to begin with.

If I give you a choice between being punched in the face or getting kicked in the crotch, it's not moral acquiescence to either regardless which you choose.

Your argument rests on a fallacy- "vote with your wallet". This presumes that we don't vote with our voice anymore, so it supersedes a democratic system of governance.

Consider: "if you oppose slavery, just don't buy slaves, and we'll let the market sort out who's right and wrong"

[–] [email protected] 1 points 11 months ago

Your argument rests on a fallacy- “vote with your wallet”. This presumes that we don’t vote with our voice anymore, so it supersedes a democratic system of governance.

Meaning this genuinely, not in a snarky way: did you read to the end of my comment? My phrasing may have been poor or a tad wordy, but I recognize what you're describing and advise collective, political action instead of voting with one's wallet.

The parenthetical at the end wasn't to suggest otherwise, only that doing so via one's existing/current government may not be a readily available option, demanding one change their government so as to make it work to those ends. I should have been clearer on that point.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago) (1 children)

No, I don't think you could, because you don't really have a choice.

I find this naive cynicism exasperating.

"Let's improve society somewhat."

"Yet, you partake in society! Curious! / sent from my iPhone"

[–] [email protected] 1 points 11 months ago

Sent from graphene but sure

[–] [email protected] 1 points 11 months ago

Supply side ethics