The conversations are amazing
this post was submitted on 17 Jan 2025
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I have some sources on the child and slave labor, if that helps.
https://worldwithoutgenocide.org/genocides-and-conflicts/genocide-of-the-uyghurs-in-western-china/china-tibet-and-the-uyghurs
https://www.hrw.org/news/2024/02/01/china-carmakers-implicated-uyghur-forced-labor
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/extra/nz0g306v8c/china-tainted-cotton
This last one is ‘Western propaganda’ but is very helpful in identifying the types of products to avoid. It’s near impossible in the US, unless you make your own textiles/clothes or only buy second-hand.
https://www.dol.gov/agencies/ilab/reports/child-labor/list-of-goods-print
Your first link is a few paragraphs with no sources whatsoever.
The second one sources Human Rights Watch, who got bodied even on reddit the last time they tried to spread this line. They pretty much source only from Zenz (a far-right anti-semitic christian evangelical who thinks birth conrtrol is genocide).
The third link has Zenz again as its main source.
Its so exhausting to have to debunk the same recycled sources over and over, so here's a megathread:
https://dessalines.github.io/essays/socialism_faq.html#whats-going-on-with-the-uyghurs
I appreciate a someone making the effort to debunk but your megathread is absolute garbage, I checked a couple links, got redirected toward twitter and quora threads, so ty but don't spread misinformation.
I need to check a lot of those links and archive them, because predictably a lot of the ones posted to US run websites like twitter get removed for going against the US-zenz narrative.
Also does the fact that these ppl use twitter or quora automatically mean they're misinforming people?
It certainly doesn't signal credibility
So all of the nations with a free and open internet are pushing propaganda, and we should just take the firewalled nation of oppressively regulated speech at their word?
No nation should allow the US surveillance arms like Facebook, twitter, instagram, youtube and reddit to operate within their borders. These are US controlled entities that serve to push pro-US foreign policy, and hoover up all global communications.
For example, the most popular social media platform in India, is facebook. The US controls the main communication platform of a country with a population much larger than its own.
Countries should realize what a dangerous threat it is to have US companies control your social media.
It's funny that we're arguing this on a platform that's legal in the US, and banned in China. Is lemmy.ml a US surveillance op too? Are you? Am I?
There is a difference between a corporation manipulating their own service and a government controlling the entire internet for the nation.
No one is forcing you to use US corporate social media. Everyone needs internet access.
US corporations are the US government. They outright own it. US media is state media with extra steps.
You don’t need to use social media to access the internet.
How many times must I write the difference between corporate controlled platforms and governmentally controlled internet?
Oh, the burden you must bear dealing with us know nothings.
The same corporations that own the media own the government. There is no difference between the two in the United States. This "democracy" is a sham. This is an oligarchy. How many times do you need to be told this before you get it?
You honestly don’t understand the difference between being limited on car choices and being forced to use specific streets?
Absurd. Good day.
There really isn't a fundamental difference here. US capitalists run the country, control its media, and stand above it's political system. It's military/defense apparatus, and police function as their hired goons.
dude, the CIA controls everything. Probably since at least the 60's. Use your brain. Why do you think the most far right and "far left" media agree on the SAME THINGS when it comes to US foreign policy? US media is JUST as free as Chinese media, which is not at all. Read about the twitter leaks. Feds just emailed them to take shit down and they did it.
Yeah? Do a quick search on how to overthrow the government. Can’t do that in China.
The Chinese people overwhelmingly approve of their government, so they have no reason to overthrow it.
Meanwhile the US congress government have gotten <20% approval ratings for years. You should probably take some lessons from the PRC on how they overthrew an oppressive government and internal reactionaries, because they have more experience at it than most countries.
I wouldn't trust statistics from relating to political issues that could get one punished in a country, people won't want to voice their true opinion in fear of punishment
Literally a study from harvard, because we know you western supremacists consider anything from a non-western source to be inferior.
Oh, I’m in no way defending the US or suggesting that it’s right and China’s wrong, but that was an example. The point is the limited ability to access information, not the need to obtain information specifically to overthrow the government.
I’m saying they’re not free to use the internet like other nations, and that it’s an oppressive and authoritarian way to gatekeep information. The US absolutely manipulates media, but at least you maintain access to the counterpoint. Neither is right, but this comment section is so quick to deflect criticism of China back to the West that they truly don’t see how both nations could be two different flavors of suck.
They already overthrew their government and embraced socialism. You act like they want to overthrow their current government. They live decent lives. Better than ours. Our media lies to you about them. They are largely happy. I know it's impossible to imagine that, what with living in this nightmare, but it's possible when your government treats you as more than consumables to be exploited for profits.
I have been protesting the Sinicization of Tibet since the 1980s. You’re not convincing me that the actions they’ve taken since the 1950s is any different that Israel’s intended eradication of the Palestinians.
I’m also an educated consumer. Every respected nation that has investigated the incarceration, monitoring, beating, forced sterilization, and forced labor of the Uyghurs has concluded to be true.
You’re telling me I should believe the offending nation and their allies over their critics, while simultaneously telling me the opposite about the West. How do you not see the hypocrisy?
No nation has "free and open internet" in reality. Some are just more open about their biases while others try to obfuscate how they censor.
dunno what your talking about ive never been blocked by government mandate only corporate mandates, and I can just vpn around those.
Chinese users use VPNs all the time. Additionally, western countries deliberately distort search results so the most approved sources are front and center.
I've been to China. VPN access requires jumping through insane hoops and disguising your traffic as different traffic. Tor is blocked. Most commercial VPNs are IP blocked. HTTPS proxy or HTTP proxy over SSH tunnel gets blocked very quickly due to traffic analysis.
You're also not, presumably, a Chinese citizen, who know better how their own internet works. Why would you immediately jump to doing what you know?
uh obviously? do you not understand the distinction between corporate and government mandates? I can explain it if you need me to because its kind of critical to this whole conversation. and if you do understand the difference, then wtf is your point.
My point is that there is no such thing as a truly "free" internet, whether it be by corporations or governments. You might as well be defending unicorns.
lol, there absolutely is. you just dont partake in it. pray tell me what precisely am I prevented from doing on the internet in my US hellscape, that isnt illegal in general internet not withstanding, which you think should be allowed.
The US government literally just effectively banned a social network through government mandate.
true! of course your hand waving why it was banned and the options they were given. tiktok could have divested from chinese control in the US region they chose not to. in no way has the US government censored information from individuals as a result of that bill. they censured the business operating procedures. two very different and distinct issues when it comes to access to content.
In no way have americans been prevented from accessing the information within tiktok. compare and contrast that with say trying to find tiananmen square information in china.
in fact i'll help everyone out, here is the ruling
US users make up about 17% of TikToc's global user base. Selling their addictive algorithm to keep a small number of users was never going to happen.
And what hand waving? It was banned because the US government could not control the flow of information to its own people like it can with all the other US corporate/state owned media. The data collection nonsense is just that. If they cared they could have regulated data collection across the board. Foreign countries abide by host countries laws all the time, see GDPR and similar. But that would have cut into the profits of other corporate/state controlled media outlets like Meta and Google.
I didnt say they should/would sell it, just that they had options. The data collection is actually important, thats the hand waving your doing by dismissing it. it is literally a national security problem. you can extrapolate state secrets from mobile location data.
they did. they regulated limits on data collection for foreign adversaries. but again that'd require you read and comprehend the bill.
in no way have they limited speech or prevented people from speaking. the fact the oligarchs control the media is absolutely a problem, but tiktok ban wasnt about information dissemination, it was about information exfiltration.
so again what information has the US government banned americans from accessing? Im honestly curious, because I'd love to know what information i can't access.
Do you know the difference between the internet and the World Wide Web?
Accessing the dark web is illegal in China, for example. They reduced access to the internet to government regulated websites, who must apply and be approved by the Chinese government to be accessible within the Great Firewall.
https://www.goclickchina.com/insights/the-complete-guide-to-the-great-firewall-of-china-gfoc/
Sure, and in the US companies like Google heavily distort search algorithms to make it so that the vast majority of people see only what's already approved.
You're still confusing the internet and the web.
So you don’t like that your point was disproven and are now comparing corporate manipulation of their own services to governmental control of the entire internet?
Get real.
What did you "disprove?" It's absolutelty comparable to acknowledge that no matter where you are, the internet is deiberately censored and distorted to curate a narrative, regardless of if its corporate owned or government owned.
Are you serious? Read the thread again.
Just because you either refuse to accept, or fail to comprehend the difference between a corporation manipulating an elective platform and a government maintaining complete control over anything transmitted over the internet, does not mean you are correct.
It means you’re stubborn. Lol
wow you have a LOT to learn. I recommend you start at the grayzone on youtube.
Are you aware the channel you’re recommending is blacklisted China?
Way to prove my point. Lol