this post was submitted on 30 Oct 2024
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OK, its just a deer, but the future is clear. These things are going to start kill people left and right.

How many kids is Elon going to kill before we shut him down? Whats the number of children we're going to allow Elon to murder every year?

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[–] [email protected] 20 points 23 hours ago (2 children)

If you watch the video, the deer was standing on a strip of off coloured pavement, and also had about the same length as the dotted line. Not sure how much colour information comes through at night on those cameras.

The point here isn't actually "should it have stopped for the deer" , it's "if the system can't even see the deer, how could it be expected to distinguish between a deer and a child?"

The calculus changes incredibly between a deer and a child.

[–] [email protected] 11 points 22 hours ago (1 children)

At the same time, it would have located it if it was using radar, but Musk decided that cameras are the future (contrary to all other brands)

[–] [email protected] 3 points 22 hours ago (1 children)

Yeah. I mean, I understand the premise, I just think it's flawed. Like, you and I as vehicle operators use two cameras when we drive (our two eyes). It's hypothetically sufficient in terms of raw data input.

Where it falls apart is that we also have brains which have evolved in ways we don't even understand to consume those inputs effectively.

But most importantly, why aim for parity at all? Why NOT give our cars the tools to "see" better than a human? I want that!

[–] [email protected] 3 points 21 hours ago (1 children)

No human could have avoided that deer without swerving their car.

A lidar provides superhuman vision which works in the dark and through fog. Elon is making a human car and ignores all the limits we have that can be solved in other ways.

A human is a general purpose organism. We are not designed as specialized driving machines.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 18 hours ago

I completely agree that if there are tools that can allow a vehicle to "see" better than a human it's absurd not to implement them. Even if musk could make a car exactly as good as a human, that's a low bar. It isn't good enough.

As for humans: if you are operating a vehicle such that you could not avoid killing an unexpected person on the road, you are not safely operating the vehicle. In this case, it's known as "over driving your headlights", you are driving at a speed that precludes you from reacting appropriately by the time you can perceive an issue.

Imagine if it wasn't a deer but a chunk of concrete that would kill you if struck at speed. Perhaps a bolder on a mountain pass. A vehicle that has broken down.

Does Musk's system operate safely? No. The fact that it was a deer is completely irrelevant.

[–] [email protected] 5 points 23 hours ago (1 children)

Agree, it didn't do anything to avoid the obstacle. A human could probably see it as an obstacle and try to swerve to the side, albeit not knowing what it is. Not saying it's possible to avoid, but some reaction would be made.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 20 hours ago (2 children)

A human could probably see it as an obstacle and try to swerve to the side, albeit not knowing what it is.

Attempting to swerve aside at that speed results in over correction, followed by loss of control and then a rollover crash. Happens all the time to people who aren't aware / don't remember that you're supposed to hit deer head on.

[–] [email protected] 5 points 17 hours ago (1 children)

Happens all the time to people who aren't aware / don't remember that you're supposed to hit deer head on.

This isn’t true. You shouldn’t jerk the wheel and swerve to avoid an animal, but if you can do it safely you absolutely should. Not only to avoid damage, but to prevent it coming through the windshield. I’ve seen this same idea in a few different comments here, but growing up in deer infested upstate NY, “hit it head on” is something I’ve never heard. Not from parents/relatives, not from driver’s ed, not from the internet until today. Keep it out of the ditch but absolutely avoid hitting the deer if you can. You don’t need to jerk the wheel to move 4-6 feet to the right, into the shoulder.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 16 hours ago* (last edited 16 hours ago) (2 children)

The idea of don't swerve for deer is very common and is taught in driving schools. If you've never heard it until today, well you were let down and today you learn. You don't know dismiss it because you haven't heard it.

Swerving is dangerous and even if you think you can do it safely, having a deer appear while travelling at high speeds is risky, even more so at night.

You're supposed to slow down but stay in lane.

The reason you're supposed to swerve for things like Moose is because moose are big as fuck and tall, and if you hit one head on, you will cut the legs out from under it, and it's massive body will roll through the windshield and crush you, killing you or causing massive bodily harm.

This is from the Virginia DMV for example (emphasis mine). Them not having something about moose is actually bad as well.

https://www.dmv.virginia.gov/sites/default/files/forms/dmv39d.pdf

Deer/Large Animal Hazards Tens of thousands of crashes with deer, elk, and bears take place in Virginia each year, resulting in fatalities, injuries and costly vehicle damage. To avoid hitting a deer or other large animal:

  • Be alert at dusk and dawn especially in the fall.
  • Slow down if you see a large animal near or crossing the road. Large animals frequently travel in groups; there are likely others nearby.
  • Use the horn to scare the animal away.
  • If a collision with a deer or other animal is unavoidable, do not swerve. Brake firmly, stay in your lane, and come to a controlled stop.
[–] [email protected] 3 points 12 hours ago (1 children)

Wait, are you saying that Virginia not mentioning what to do if a moose is in the road is “bad”?

Considering that the northern-most part of Virginia is still about 350 mi south of the closest range of moose, it would be pointless if not absurd for them to include it.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 12 hours ago (1 children)

Do people from Virginia never travel 350miles north?

The guidance on that page is incorrect and if that's what they teach it might kill someone.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 11 hours ago

A DMV is accountable for driving laws and practices in their own state, not educating people about every possible driving condition anywhere.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 16 hours ago* (last edited 16 hours ago) (1 children)

Did you read the second sentence I wrote? Of course don’t swerve. That doesn’t mean you have to hit them head on all the time. It’s okay to hit deer head on, but you’re not “supposed to” as the comment I was replying to says. If you can safely move over a few feet and make it a glancing blow, or miss altogether, that’s better and safer than head on. We have antilock brakes ubiquitously now, you can steer and brake simultaneously. If you’ve got shoulder to use, use it.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 16 hours ago* (last edited 16 hours ago) (1 children)

If you can safely change lanes then of course change lanes as your normally would do to avoid anything in your lane.

Beyond that it's now dangerous. Stay in lane, hit the deer.

If you wouldn't normally change lanes like that, then don't do it for the deer.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 15 hours ago

Agreed. I’ve just never heard “you’re supposed to hit them head on”

[–] [email protected] 1 points 17 hours ago

Hit the deer head on, but swerve for moose and elk.