this post was submitted on 18 Jul 2024
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United States | News & Politics
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I agree, calls for Biden to step aside are legitimate arguments. I just dislike the DNC conspiracy theory lines like there were no primaries, when people absolutely did have the freedom to run against him if they wanted. Nobody forced progressives not to run, every last one of them personally chose not to, of their own volition, based on the existing information they had at the time. They could be asked not to run, but the choice was theirs every time.
A political party operating like a political party is not a "conspiracy." Political parties are literally groups of people that work together to achieve political goals.
Party members had the freedom to defy their Party but that would be seriously detrimental to their political careers within the Party. People chose to follow the Party's direction because that's how political parties are supposed to work. It's like when Obama called all the also-rans and told them to drop out and endorse Biden in 2020. The choice was theirs back then, too, but it's not as simple as everyone just spontaneously deciding to run or not run or drop out all on their own with zero input from the Party.
That's not a conspiracy! That's just a political party operating like a political party. I don't know why this is so hard to accept.
And it's not too late for the Party to fix this fucking mess.
That last line right there is the problem. Tell me, how can the party fix this mess if Biden, for whatever reason, simply refuses to drop out? Is there some mechanism or method by which the party can force him out, short of attempting to enact the 25th amendment and hoping Congress agrees?
You're minimizing the personal freedom these individuals have to defy their party, giving the party an unrealistic amount of behind-the-scenes power. This is conspiratorial.
Bernie did not cooperate with the party, isn't even officially a member. Still doing fine though. This party apparatus does not have the actual degree of control people like to think, it can only sway, lobby and pressure. People simply like to blame it at every opportunity, out of convenience mainly.
Threaten to invoke the 25th Amendment.
I should point out that they don't really care if he loses. If he loses, oh well, Trump is great for the Party because they can use him to fund-raise and make electoral gains. He'll probably fuck up as badly as he did in his first term and they'll get a new majority.
Why wouldn't they just run the genocidal mummy, let him lose, and then start over in 2028? The Public's memory is short, after all.
Bernie has a personal political brand that's strong enough to withstand the Party. He can afford to defy the Party. Bad comparison.
The Party gets the blame for when their coalition fucks up. Parties are accountable for their membership.
The 25th amendment requires both houses of congress to vote in favor of replacing the president with a 2/3rds majority. Republicans control the house, and are unlikely to comply. Additionally, unless he actually is legitimately unfit, it would be unethical for his cabinet and VP to make that assertion.
It's a pipe dream. There isn't actually an answer when we get into the nitty gritty legal details.
The reason to not allow Trump to win, incidentally, is proj 2025 and his new SC granted legal immunity. He already tried to overthrow one election, in case you don't remember.
You're living in conspiracy land to make yourself feel better about why progressives aren't in charge more often. The real answer is we just don't outnumber the moderates in most places.
You think Republicans would turn down the chance to remove Biden from office?
How, exactly, would the explain that to their constituents? 🤨
Yes, which is why they should be trying to replace Biden, because making him the nominee is guaranteeing a second Trump term. The fact that they won't even try and most of the party is lining up behind him as the nominee shows me that they don't actually believe there's a real danger.
The literal purpose of political parties and their power to both influence elections and party membership isn't a conspiracy, this is ludicrous, this is the function of political parties. It's not just a fan club. They exist to set the agenda, platform, and manage the coalition. You're basically denying that political parties perform a function.
In your world, what even is the purpose of political parties?
This isn't even about progressive politics. This is about a genocidal mummy driving us off a cliff and guaranteeing a second Trump term.
Simple, they think Biden is a weak candidate, and they have the best chances of beating him. Several have made statements towards this effect.
So, any other ideas for how Biden can be removed beyond republicans voting for a stronger opponent?
Your conspiracy is this hanging on to some way to control events when no mechanism exists. You are exaggerating a true thing (the purpose of parties) into something untrue (control over events). Very simple.
But what do they tell their constituents, who think Biden stole the election and needs to be impeached?
They can literally just not nominate him at the convention. It's that easy. They control who the nominee is.
They could hold a condensed primary by mailing out ballots to all 50 States and then use that to inform delegates at the convention, they make the rules and since this is an emergency situation they could make new rules.
They tell their constituents exactly what they've been saying, what I told you. Their constituents would forgive them, that's not difficult to understand.
If you're advocating for just making up new rules on the fly that toss out the will of the voters, that's just authoritarianism. That's not us.
Republican voters: well known for understanding politics 👍
"They go low we go high" is a losing strategy.
As for the "will of the voters"? Look at the polls! Voters don't want Joe and the will of the voters will demonstrate it when Trump fucking wins, and if you really believe that's the end of democracy then maybe that matters a little more than primary tradition.
EDIT Relevant article to our discussion just dropped on Jacobin, here's what Democratic Rep. Adam Smith had to say:
Republicans will believe what Trump tells them to believe. You're just fighting this to be stubborn, it makes no sense that republicans would weaken themselves just to be consistent. They are horribly inconsistent very often.
It doesn't matter. If everyone in this country starts betraying their values just to save it, then the nation might not be worth saving anymore. Someone has to stand up for democratic principles. And polls are not that great these days, you remember they predicted Hilary's victory? The voters voted, and they were primaries even if you didn't have anyone you liked running.
Don't presume my values. I'm trans in a red state. When Trump wins I'm probably going to die.
Dumping Biden is life or death to me, so no shit I'm going to be stubborn.
Meanwhile, you would rather Trump get elected than Democrats replace Biden.
Your priorities are fucked dawg 😞
No, I actually think Biden would beat Trump if we actually had the election with him. If we look at the polling before the race to replace Santos' seat, the dems outperformed their polling average by 8 points, and I expect something similar in the national. As I said, polls are not that great these days.
Additionally, I hope Biden does drop out, I think Harris would be a stronger candidate and improve our chances. However, I will fight this silly idea that some backroom, democratic party behind-the-scenes conspiracy group can magically save us. It cannot. The only ones that can save us is us, the voters who have to get out the vote with grassroots effort. No matter who the dem candidate is. Biden can help by resigning, but that is outside of the control of everyone but Biden. I actually think he will, though, he's a good man.
I guess we'll see.
I'd put $20 on him dropping out in the next week, actually.
So, what, does that have nothing to do with the Party slowly coming out against his candidacy? Democratic donors freaking out? The endless parade of opinion pieces? Elected representatives asking for him to step aside? The Party is putting the pressure on!
If he drops out I think that shows Party power.
You have a fondness for exaggeration and absolutes it seems. It has to be party control, or nothing to do. Consider a spectrum, shades of grey. As I said, they have influence, sway, they can lobby. Pressure. This is not control, command, force. The difference involves free will.
You understand a spectrum, yes? How, much like gender, something can be beyond a simple binary? We can have an in-between thing?
That wouldn't be enough to LITERALLY remove him, but it would be such a strong signal of disavowal from people who he himself appointed that he'd be effectively dead to the party already.
True. It would still be unethical unless he was actually medically unfit, though. Regardless of debate performance, he's probably not actually senile yet, which they would know better than we would just from working with the guy regularly.