this post was submitted on 16 Jul 2024
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You're still not getting it.
You could have a preference for not being called slurs, as most people do, but "cis" isn't a slur or a label, it's a descriptor of if you are or are not transgendered (or agender).
Everything we know about Jordan B. Peterson clearly tells us he is not trans. Thus, he is cis-gendered.
If Jordan expressed a preference to not be called a human being, and then someone came to you and asked "what species is Jordan B. Peterson?" , would you try some euphemism for 'human' because "Jordan has expressed a preference to not be labeled human" ?
No, you wouldn't. You're just trying to strawman this bullshit so that "since trans people can choose their preferred pronouns, Jordan can choose if he wants to be labeled cis or not", which is just not how anything works.
It's like those Americans who get offended that the Spanish word for black is "negra/negro".
I don't think we are going to find mutual understanding. I may disagree with people being sensitive of a word, but I cannot call people things they find triggering/insulting - I need to respect everyone including how they identify themselves. I would not call Black Americans words they don't like, and try to defend it by saying its normal in Spanish.
He doesn't want to be called "not gay" because he doesn't want gays to exist. He doesn't want to normalize gays. It's not about him, it's about hating others under a thin veil.
If you "need to respect everyone" then why are you here defending JP who get far more respect than he deserves when you could be respecting and supporting the choices of minorities?
Seems like your vocal, active, respect is EXTREMELY selective! You seem to mostly fight for the respect of people who actively advocate to disrespect the weak and disenfranchised. How strange!
"I don't think we're going to find mutual understanding."
Well clearly, since you're being unreasonable.
"I cannot call people things they find triggering/insulting."
Okay, so just to let you know, I find the vowels "e" and "i" to be extremely offensive, so if you could refrain from using them while discussing with me so as not to trigger me, that'd be appreciated.
"Cis" isn't a "label". It's as much a descriptor as "obese". Some people are calling for that to be slur, but it's not, it's a medical term. Imagine you're an instructor at a bungee-jumping place. You need to know the weight of the people jumping. If someone comes in and tells you they get offended if labeled by numerals, would you want to "respect" that and just avoid the issue of their weight and just pick a rope strength at random?
Especially because Elon definitely does identify as a cis-man. That's just not up for question. "I would not call Black Americans words they don't like". So if someone asks you in spanish, what colour a black object is, you wouldn't use the Spanish word for black? Then what would you call it?
You can't defend a slur by pretending "no I wasn't calling them the n-word, I was just using the spanish word for black" if you actually spoke English, because that's an excuse, not them using Spanish.
Just like with Elon, he's trying to utilise the "I can decide what people should call me" (and he can, he can literally do that), but if his gender-identity aligns with the sex he was born with, then he is cis (and he does identify as a man, and he was AMAB, so he is cis-gendered). Just like if a person has sexual attraction to their own sex, they are a homosexual. Ofc you "homo" has been used as an insult as well (although pretty much solely for homosexual men and not women), because gay people have historically been oppressed quite a lot. I'm sure Elon has noticed there's a negative connotation sometimes with "cis" if it's in the "cis white male" context where that is being used to generalise "the opposition" as if were (which is itself othering by anyone using that 'tactic'). The point here being that cis men have not historically been oppressed. Anywhere, really. Ever. Ofc certain cis men have been, due to them being say of an ethnicity that's been oppressed, but cis men haven't been oppressed for being cis men, is the point.
And just like "homosexual" isn't a slur in an of itself, "cis-gendered" isn't either, and it's even harder to use "cis" in an offensive context than it is the whole word "homosexual". "You homo" would probably be used as an insult, but "you're a homosexual" really doesn't seem as offensive as it does descriptive.
You know what else were medical terms? Dumb. Cretin. Moron. Idiot. Retarded. Not saying "obese" is on that level yet, just that originating as a medical term doesn't remove usage of that term from any criticism. If it's consistently used as an insult rather than a neutral descriptor...it becomes an insult.
Just how does one use it as an insult?
Yeah, medicine evolves and realises the old shit they were doing was wrong and then it adapts. Like how we know sex is different from gender, and someone for whom those aligns is known as "cis-gendered".
I have dozens of alternatives which are politically correct and reflect better the conditions which those terms used to be used for.
What alternative would you suggest for "cis-gendered"?
And also, does your answer imply that because some people consider "obese" to be offensive that we should avoid it and use something like "above the thing that's above 'normal' in the BMI-scale", because that's a mouthful compared to "obese" and I'd feel silly hearing it out of a doctor's mouth.
How does one use "cis" or "obese" as an insult? My comment was solely about using "it's a medical term" as a defense, not about "cis." I don't think it's possible for "cis" to become an insult, because it doesn't describe a medical condition. People can whine that it's an insult, but it never will be. "Obese," however, is a medical condition, just like the other words I mentioned. It can absolutely be an insult if the intent is to hurt the person you're saying it to. It's all about intent. Do I consider it an insult akin to the other words mentioned? No, I haven't seen it used that way enough.
It definitely is a medical term.
Ofc it's not something you'd write for everyone in all contexts, because cis is literally assumed, but for a psychiatrist or a psychologist dealing with trans patients, yes, they'd definitely use the term when needed.
What alternative do you suggest for cisgender, if you need to use the concept?
The prefix “cis-” comes from the Latin meaning “on this side,” as opposed to “trans-” which means “on the other side of” or “beyond.”
It's been used for various things for a long time.
It's not all about intent. Intent matters, sure, but even with bad intent, please describe a scenario in which someone uses "cis" as an offensive insult? Perhaps I just lack in imagination. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
I said cis wasn't a medical condition, not term. There is no need for an alternative because I see no issue with it.
I already said it can't be an insult. I was referring to "obese" as possible to use to be hurtful.
Why... why would you lie so blatantly something that can be so easily checked?
You, literally in the previous comment:
It is a medical term. A sometimes necessary one.
Calling someone obese isn't hurtful because of the word, it's hurtful because it's a reminder to an obese person that they're obese, which most obese people are aware is something you should strive not to be, because it's unhealthy.
Not being transgender is hurtful to Elon or some similar minded people? (Great minds think alike, but fools rarely differ.) Having your gender be congruent with the sex you were born into is hurtful to these people?
My my, I'd have thought Elon isn't actually that jealous that he's not transgendered, what with all the transhate he posts.
So... in what sort of situation could it be hurtful and to whom? And if it isn't, or can't even be, then what are we arguing over?
There's no alternative to "cis" in this context. It's literally just because dumb conservatives feel xenophobia towards a simple word like "cis". If we called people "straightgendered", I'm sure the people who are now "offended" over "cisgender" would be waving flags saying "proud straight-o-gender" or some such bs.
Let me try to untangle this.
You said:
Implying that if something is a medical term, it cannot be a slur. This is patently untrue, as evidenced by the medical terms I mentioned that very much became slurs after being widely used as insults.
That's it. I wasn't intending to touch on "cis" in this context, just the idea that something being a medical term meant it could not be a slur. Apparently I shouldn't have muddied the waters by talking about "cis" afterwards. I was attempting to explain why it wasn't the same as a term like "obese."
Cis is fine. I've said this three times now, so please stop acting like I've said otherwise.
First off, no, I didn't imply that just because something is a medical term, it can't be used as an insult. If I said I assume you've had a lobotomy, it'd be offensive. However... we don't really do lobotomies anymore, do we? you mean that a lot of things that used to be medical terms are nowadays used as slurs. We also don't call people the r-word. Of course you can insult someone by asking condescendingly if they have a learning disability, but again, that implies a disability, just like "obese" implies an unhealthy medical condition. Who and in what kind of situation would consider "cisgender" offensive?
When we are using accurate, up-to-date medical terms, they aren't in an of themselves offensive. Most things can be made offensive through context, and it's easy to see how mocking someone's intelligence or implying they've "chosen" to be unhealthy (by having a bad diet or not exercising or something that is usually implied with fat insults), but I personally can't see a context in which "cisgender" could be offensive to anyone. As I've said, perhaps it's just my imagination. Perhaps you know some situations or contexts in which it could be offensive? I've asked this a few times now, and this isn't the first time I'm asking it on Lemmy. Seems to me that the people who are saying that "cis can be used as an insult" don't seem to be able to give an example of how.
Oh yeah, reply to me demanding I've implied something I haven't and then tell me I'm sealioning, yes, sure.
So you've missed the point of my original comment and then went on to post several comments where you literally even contradict yourself. It's okay if you missed the meaning of my point, no need to reply.
I can't imagine any scenario in which someone would be offended over the term "cisgendered". Can you? Or are you still on about how you think I implied medical terms can't be insults, which I never did? "Obese" is a current, up to date medical term. It can be offensive to people, because of the reasons I've explained several times, but there's no alternative word for the medical term. Doctor's won't go around calling someone "a bit big-boned". You can use those euphemisms in real life, as there's no need to call someone obese when there are euphemisms available. I could easily list out dozens of euphemisms for obese, although those also usually apply to all sort of overweight. I can't even think up a euphemism for "cisgender".
So EVEN IF there were a context in which someone finds "cisgender" to be offensive (which I think there isn't), because there's no folksy alternative to it, unlike with "obese", which again, sometimes has to be used as a medical term to specify a specific thing, for which euphemisms just don't do.