The Israeli government insists that Hamas formally sanctioned sexual assault on October 7, 2023. But investigators say the evidence does not stand up to scrutiny. Catherine Philp and Gabrielle Weiniger report on eight months of claim and counter-claim
Talk of rape began circulating almost before the massacres themselves were over. Much of it came from what Patten would later call “non-professionals” who supplied “inaccurate and unreliable forensic interpretations” of what they found, creating an instant but flawed narrative about what had taken place.
Meanwhile, the political establishment has opened a fresh battle with the UN over what the Patten report didn’t say: that sexual violence was beyond reasonable doubt, systematic, widespread and ordered and perpetrated by Hamas. Israeli advocates for the female survivors are now warning that the country’s refusal to co-operate with a full and legal investigation, which the carefully worded report was not, threatens the prospect of ever finding out the full truth about the sexual violence of October 7 and delivering justice for its victims.
It was not a legal investigation, Patten explained, as Israel had not allowed one: that mandate could only be fulfilled by the Independent International Commission of Inquiry on the Occupied Palestinian Territory, which Israel has refused to work with since its inception. She hoped that would change.
Patten made it clear there was sufficient evidence of acts of sexual violence to merit full and proper investigation and expressed her shock at the brutality of the violence. The report also confirmed Israeli authorities were unable to provide much of the evidence that political leaders had insisted existed. In all the Hamas video footage Patten’s team had watched and all the photographs they had seen, there were no depictions of rape. We hired a leading Israeli dark-web researcher to look for evidence of those images, including footage deleted from public sources. None could be found.
Yeah. For me the really notable factor is the weirdness of the disconnect. Like if you look at the person's claims and study the flow of the conversation back and forth, it starts to become really obvious that they don't actually have factual belief in the things they are saying. But they still want to continue the conversation and invest a bunch of energy into it. Like, a lot, over a long period of time.
So... why? There aren't too many plausible explanations for those two things in combination, and then coming alongside "blue MAGA" and Democrats this and Biden that, it all of a sudden clicks into focus and it all makes sense. Now that I'm looking at it more, I'm pretty sold on shilling being the explanation.
Well, when I say team sports I mean it as an aesthetic. There are plenty of noble and lofty revolutionary causes to attach onto these days and honestly it's really laudable that young people are becoming more invested politically.
But there is a contingent that in my opinion is only tagging along the ride for the perceived social capital that is gained by joining a team. Right now, Palestinians are victims and targets of atrocities being perpetuated by the IDF. Right now the in-group is committing a sort of map and territory switch where the aesthetic of the cause supersedes the goals it is trying to achieve.
A good example to ground this is political streamer Hassan Piker: He lives in a multimillion dollar mansion, drives a Porsche, and touts himself as a socialist/communist. He has a sickle and hammer backdrop in a lot of his merchandise but he wouldn't be the product of what he is without milking capitalism to its full extent.
That's why when I call out Linkerbaan for larping, I mean it's just an aesthetic or as a performative production. The map has become the territory.
Antonio Gueterres, the head of the UN certainly doesn't believe the things you are saying.
Cool! I love the "Never Play Defense" game, and would be happy to bring some other random assertion into the mix to counterbalance your random new assertion. But, I have exhausted the amount of effort I want to expend on this right now. Another day, sure; feel free to reach out any time.
You keep bringing up the same stale points debunked a million times in every thread. Even in the post it's mentioned the Patten report is not a proper investigation.
You're the one that doesn't want to defend the fact that the UN doesn't acknowledge the Patten report as evidence.
If you are really hankering that badly to continue the pointless back-and-forth, I should be able to provide you with something, just not right now. I will get back to you though. I have an idea that I think can keep you busy for more or less as much time as you want to spend on it.
We're in an article that spent money on a dark web expert to dig up any rape evidence and still didn't find any.
If only those fools from the UN team had spent their money on that, instead of a team of experts in sexual assault who then toured the affected areas and interviewed all those people and reviewed forensic evidence. The answers were on the dark web the whole time. Everyone knows the first thing you learn in Hamas is how to use Tor Browser. Now that you say it that way, it’s completely obvious.
Which forensic rape evidence was found? You're bringing it up so surely you mean to imply there's forensic evidence of rape in the UN report?
Why would I need to tell you? You've read the report, you said, so you would know what is and isn't in it.
A sarcastic response occurred to me, so I let it out, but I'm not interested in continuing the lengthy dishonest exchange where you cosplay as someone who's "winning" (for reasons I still don't really understand.) The interaction is done from my side.
There's a new UN report out. Some interesting reading material for you maybe.
But they did find rape evidence.... of israel raping Palestinians.
Second message portion (2/2). This is the recommendations. If you want to keep talking with me, you can start with this section, answering some of the unanswered questions and following the recommendations on how you can engage more productively in the conversation. If you're open to doing that, then sure! Let's rap.
Chapter 4: Recommendations
Section 4.1: Questions for Linkerbaan to Address
Substantive Responses to Specific Questions:
Clarification of Evidence Claims:
Address Misrepresentation Concerns:
Section 4.2: Steps for Productive Engagement
Engage with Nuanced Points:
Provide Clear Citations:
Acknowledge Other Viewpoints:
This structured report aims to objectively assess the engagement of Linkerbaan in the specified comment chain, highlighting areas of evasion, misrepresentation, and providing constructive recommendations for future discussions.
If you don't want to engage on a subject consider not replying to a thread. One can't make false rape accusations and then be upset when they get debunked.
Why are you rejecting my good faith efforts to help you with productively engaging in the conversation
I typed up a whole report just for you Linkerbaan
Which forensic evidence was it again? Couldn't find it in your response.
I hope I have at least brought some entertainment to your working day. Have a good one
Thanks you too mate see you in the next post.
My god dude. Okay, sure. This next is a two part message (1/2)
Me
I'd like you to create a report on Linkerbaan's level of good faith engagement in this comment chain. You'll have to be a little bit careful to observe the nested structure of the comments, which ones are replies to which, and then make a detailed report -- in the format of a formally structure report like a UN presentation of fact-finding, divided into chapters, sections, and then subsections where appropriate.
Some of the main chapters I'd like to include are:
Here is the comment chain that I'd like you to summarize in that way. Bear in mind that the topic is a fairly sensitive topic.
(comment chain is redacted)
GPT
Report on the Engagement of Linkerbaan in the Comment Chain
Chapter 1: Unanswered Questions
Section 1.1: Key Instances of Unanswered Questions
Question from @Belastend:
Question from @mozz:
Section 1.2: Repeated Evasion of Specific Queries
Chapter 2: Misrepresentation
Section 2.1: Misrepresentation of Sources
Section 2.2: Misrepresentation of Other Users’ Statements
Chapter 3: Positive Engagement
Section 3.1: Points of Constructive Dialogue
(To be continued, 1/2)
This needs to get in the halls of /bestoflemmy or something.
Haha, that is amazing.
But seriously, you're just wasting your time with this clown.
Honestly I was pretty impressed with the level of detail and accuracy it was able to come up with.
And yes I know that looking for productive conversation with this person is looking for sandwiches in a pigpen. I do feel like I wasted a little too much time on it yesterday, but I'm just entertaining myself at this point; this kind of thing is funny to me.