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'Horrifying' Footage Shows IDF Killing Two Gazans, Burying Their Bodies With a Bulldozer
(www.commondreams.org)
this post was submitted on 28 Mar 2024
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Maybe I wasn't clear; those allies are only allies because of what they provide us, and what Israel provides us is control and influence over the middle east. They represent our interests in exchange for us propping them up as a regional power (e.g. a VASSEL state). Sometimes barons form their own alliances and rebel, but they are still barons in the first instance.
They would get the boot if their behavior is in misalignment with the US's interest, but coincidentally, genocide is not incomparable with what interests we have in the region. It's just a bit 'inconvenient' to our brand.
Which is why it is not 'neutral', it quite consciously gives advantage to hierarchical structures outside the state.
It seems your definition of neutrality requires action and enforcement, while my definition requires inaction. Is there another distinction? Otherwise this is pointless semantics.
Yes, military alliances need to provide benefit for both parties. We have sufficient influence in the Middle East, though, with bases throughout Iraq and Syria, and other longstanding allies in the region like the Saudis and Kuwaitis. I know you believe this vassal state nonsense, but you don't have much evidence or strong reasoning to stand on here. Also note, that as a nuclear power, Israel would continue to exist after US withdrawal.
As an aside, do you concede that we no longer need the oil from the region? That's a key point. Our main hydrocarbon trading partner is Canada, now.
It's not a semantic disagreement, it's a metaphysical one. A fundamental principle of philosophy is that no system is truly neutral, ALL systems advantage certain outcomes. Claiming a system as neutral is as ideological as claiming something as 'natural'. But rather than doubling down on my own perspective, I'll let William James put the debate to rest:
If you agree that liberalism advantages external power structures and enables the consolidation thereof then there remains no disagreement between us.
A claim I never made. The geopolitical significance of the middle east is its large oil deposits, as well as its geographical proximity to major trade routes. Whether we source our own oil from there is immaterial to the point I was making.
I think you've illuminated a fundamental weakness of metaphysical debate. But regardless, as I recall we don't require the word neutral, we've come up with at least four that I'm personally fine with. Use whichever you like.
Yes, I agreed with that several comments ago. Liberalism distributes power among many institutions, from religious, to capital, to community, to state, etc. It allows these to perform actions that it will not perform. You could certainly call that advantage.
In what way is it immaterial whether we source our oil from there or not? Seems to be the very crux of the matter to me.
because our interest in the region isn't for oil for ourselves, it's influence over all the nations in the region, and that entire region revolves around the power that oil grants those countries.
Uh huh. I think you're just drifting into conspiracy theory land now. Regardless, our large amount of aid to Egypt give us significant influence over the Suez, and our multitude of other alliances and bases gives plenty of power for that, if it actually was the goal. We could lose any three and still have massive power projection through the region.
Lol a third of the world's oil is produced in the middle east, and most of it is moved across boarders through pipelines and by sea.
I don't think it's conspiratorial to say that is extremely valuable, even if it's only marginally less-so after the shale revolution. Hell, the entire current phase of conflict in the red sea was because Yemeni Houthies, (a relatively tiny military power) were targeting trade routes.
Whatever you want to believe I guess, I'm pretty bored with whatever this is.
Yes it's absolutely valuable. Just not to us. The trade routes you've mentioned are far more so, since that impacts the global economy. We'd be a poor global military superpower if we had a plethora of bases everywhere except one of the most concentrated shipping regions on the whole planet.
Just so long as you recognize that perhaps Israel has no special military significance anymore, and hasn't for over a decade now. It's more religious than geopolitical at this point. Very different from how things were 50 years ago.
fucking LMAO. They're a western-aligned nuclear superpower with the 4th strongest military in the region, behind 2 other (far, FAR bigger) western-aligned countries. That, and they occupy a large stretch of the Mediterranean sea in front of a nexus of oil pipelines and trade ports.
You do you though.
But none of that is unique. We have nukes that can touch every corner of the globe. We have a much larger military than them. We have Egypt and Turkey on either side of them.
I'm sorry for challenging your pre-existing perceptions, but history kept moving.
it doesn't matter if "we" have nukes, it matters that the power occupying that strategic position has it. The US isn't going to launch nukes if Iran marches into Israel, but Iran isn't going to march into Israel so long as they have them themselves. You said it yourself: it is a vulnerable position for global trade. The US stands to loose the most, and all our opposition to gain the most, by a disruption there.
I don't even know why you're still harping on this, it seems pretty unimportant even by your own apparent worldview.
If Israel wasn't there, the US strategic position in the Middle East would not change. It would not be noticeably weaker in any way.
As I said before, I'm a stickler for accuracy. I'm not the only one that keeps discussing it, at any rate. And this vassal state meme irritates me. It's just vidya game meme bullshit, and when challenged, all you folks that like it seem to have is the most nebulous answers that are half-wrong.
edit: Actually, if Israel wasn't there, our strategic position in the Middle East would get stronger. Israel is weakening us by making us so vulnerable to legitimate criticism.
If it were true that Israel means nothing to our strategic objectives, and that our continued alliance weakens us to criticism, then why the fuck would the US continue to support them? Israel offers them influence over the region, otherwise there's no point in supporting their genocide. I would be seriously concerned if the US continued to support them if they didn't have strategic interests through them. I'd love for you to venture a guess as to why you think the US continues supporting Israel, if you think that we'd actually be better off if we didn't have them as an ally.
Make it make sense. You're certainly not a stickler for internal consistency, that's for sure.
I don't know, I think I've been quite consistent throughout.
Asides the reasons I already gave you, that you seem to have suddenly forgotten, of both being ethnically diverse democracies with a long tradition of mutual support, there's actually a much bigger reason:
The US has a vast number of global military alliances. Not just NATO, but also independent alliances with countries like Morocco, and larger bloc alliances, like the Rio Pact with most of South America. In many ways, we under-write global security, a concept sometimes referred to as Pax Americana. That entire system gets put on shakier ground if we suddenly turn around and betray our obligations to any one of those countries in the midst of a war. However we may see it from our own perspectives over here, Israel is very much fighting a war, a nearly total war even. Since we have promised our support, it would take quite a bit to force us to backtrack on that.
Additionally, it's important to remember the US has no history of dropping an ally just for war crimes, and to the contrary, continued to support Turkey despite their own ethnic cleansing of their Kurds, which are actually another US ally entirely. So, the stuff certainly gets complicated sometimes.
Also, don't forget the wishes of the American people. Until more recently, most supported the Israelis. They have particularly strong support on the religious right, so that's another, probably more minor consideration.
So, three reasons, yes? Tradition, is one. Maintaining a reputation for honoring global security commitments, is two, and the biggest. Domestic politics is three.
Against those, all you seem to have is some mistaken assumption that the US drops allies for war crimes. Which is just nonsense. We sometimes commit war crimes, I assume you were aware of that.
That's not a reason to do anything, it's simply a reason not to think about it
Those commitments mean nothing if they are indifferent to abuses, that goes both ways.
Try again. US support for israel's military action in Gaza is at 36%. If this was real, it'd be an explanation as to why we stopped support.
Because they have material benefits to our interests.
Just because you personally do not think a reason is important, like say, global security guarantees, does not mean Biden's State Dept doesn't. And their opinion matters far more than yours. Similar with our history of cooperation.
Your 36% is from recently. You'll note it was not at that level a few months ago. You may also have noticed that Biden's support of Israel has been steadily declining, we have recently stopped protecting them in the UN Security Council, for instance.
You can't describe their material benefits to our interests in any way I haven't already refuted. Position? Unnecessary when they are surrounded by our bases. Military contribution? Minor. Were there others? I forget.
I'm beginning to get the impression you're just petulantly arguing at this point. You haven't said anything about Turkey's history with Kurds, or our long history of supporting other war criminals.