this post was submitted on 28 Jun 2023
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ABSOLUTELY NOT Don't let anybody tell you otherwise. It is and should be employers job to pay their workers a living wage in a rich country not the buyers.
Culturally, there will be people who will look down on or say nasty things to you if they find out you do not/did not tip. This happened to me. Some of the nasty comments (these are not said by the employees) people say are "The employees will remember this and may spit in your food or tamper with it in some way next time you order, which has got to be illegal for health code reasons for employees to do and is guilt tripping on the person who says this comment. Not only that, but those who say such awful things are continuing the nasty treatment of employees by the ruling class by saying such nasty remarks.
If it should be the employers job to pay a living wage, why would you take it out on the employee? Most establishments in the US pay waitstaff way under minimum wage ($2-$3 per hour). If you don't tip your waiter at an establishment like this, you are basically denying that waiter their wage, and it has no effect on the employers bottom line. You should be prepared to tip, otherwise don't go at all.
And for the record, I agree with your first statement: the owners should be paying their employees a living wage. Tipping as a practice should be largely eliminated. However not tipping doesn't help that situation, it just hurts the employee. If you want it to change you should boycott restaurants that do this and be an advocate for fair wage laws.
Please reread my post. Where did i say don't tip?
It is strongly implied until the last paragraph, where you advocate tipping as little as possible if you don't like their attitude. Horrible, cruel take.
So i should tip someone who is very rude or treats my spouce/partner badly? I didn't say "no tip", did i?
Yes. Unless there's clearly bigotry of some kind behind the behavior, yes. You never know what someone might be dealing with. They could have been denied that day off to attend a funeral for a family member (which absolutely happens in that industry), or they could just be completely burned out and unable to perform the emotional labor and / or masking to appear kind and respectful any more. I've been there personally. I've also had situations where guests thought I was being rude, when there was just a culture difference and I was trying to communicate. I've almost lost my job because I wouldn't give a customer free product. My "no" was interpreted as rude because I was completely burned out from working 12+ hours straight that day, with no overtime pay, and just couldn't fake a smile anymore. As a result, unless someone is being openly homophobic, etc, I never tip less than 20%, because my feelings and read on the situation shouldn't impact someone's ability to feed themselves.
Nobody should be put through that. Employers should pay you and everyone a living wage. Work should, seriously not be needed for survival in my eyes, but something that is done, purely for passion or fun. Our society should set goals to push to eliminate capitalism as long term goal and in shorter term work to end systemic issues such as what you described how you were treated badly, how other workers are treated badly, how peoples lives are ruined when they lose their jobs. I'm on your side on improving this.
That's great! I assume, then, that this means you wouldn't deny a service worker needed resources because you thought they were a little grumpy?
Again i am talking to improve systemic issues
Ah. So to be clear, you would deny someone needed resources because of their attitude?
This isn't the fight you're looking for π
The fact that you truly believe this is a great example of how bad tipping culture, and work culture has gotten in the US. It's as if the word "tip" has been completely redefined to mean "compulsory tax on services". Based on your post, I wouldn't be surprised if a good portion of youth today legitimately believe that to be the definition.
What if I told you that all the distress you're directing toward low/non tippers should be directed at your employer who isn't paying you properly, is over working you, and doesn't have your back in the face of shitty customers demanding free stuff? Instead of getting upset about people who rightfully reject a bullshit tipping culture, go unionize. That's literally what they're for. Force your employer to treat you like a human being, don't let them pit you and the customers against each other while they laugh all the way to the bank.
You make some big assumptions about my politics here. Believe me, I've got plenty of 'distress' for employers. None of this changes the fact that if you know that service workers are grievously exploited and you choose to have them wait on you while not compensating them, then you are also committing an immoral act. You and the employer then have something in common: you both know that the worker ought to be compensated fairly for their work, and you're both refusing to do it.
Am I absolved of sin when buying clothing that I know is produced in a sweatshop because 'well, the employer really ought to improve working conditions, but that's not my problem'?
The employer first exploited the worker, then you went in, benefited from their labor for free, directly reducing their income, supporting the business that exploits them while not supporting the worker, and somehow, your hands are clean?
You could choose to simply not give businesses who don't fairly compensate their workers your money, but instead, you give them the cost of your dinner and reduce your server's hourly wage?
If people want to reject tipping culture, they need to reject businesses that practice it, not fund them.
Could you do me a favor real quick? Could you please tell me in no uncertain terms that you support collective bargaining (i.e. unionization) by workers to combat exploitation by employers. That will short circuit a lot of this I think. If you cannot do that, then I am forced to believe you are arguing in bad faith (as most of your arguments here are reductive, untenable, and deliberately antagonistic).
Will this picture from my kitchen suffice? Now how about some counterarguments to my terrible points?
That is an awesome poster, and a very.....interesting response given how specific my request was...I'll give you the benefit of the doubt, though.
So first off, when I walk into a restaurant, I have no way of knowing if the employees are being exploited. If I believe I live in a functioning society with appropriate regulations in place, I have to assume they're not. I have to assume that an employee continuing to work somewhere means they would prefer to keep that job, which means they would prefer the business stay in business, which means they would prefer I spend my money at the establishment. If your argument is that by living in the US I should know that all restaurant workers are exploited and thus I should never eat at one, I respect your opinion, but I disagree.
If that's NOT what you're saying, then how do I know when an employee in front of me is being exploited? Either they should tell me, and I'll leave, or they should quit.
I don't like the choice of the word "sin" here, as that implies some divine being has arbitrarily chosen what "sin" is. I will assume you meant something more akin to "is it ethically conscionable". And I would say, if not buying the clothing means you are unclothed, then yes. Some problems are inherently systemic, and are much larger than an individual will be able to solve before they need to put clothes on their back.
On the other hand, if I'm buying a dress to wear once, and I know it's made by exploited workers, then yeah, no, obviously don't buy the dress.
Except that, unless the employer opts to break the law, anything between the worker's tips and minimum wage comes out of the employer's pocket. Legally, that's how minimum wage works. I understand that wage theft is a thing, but that exists in many industries, yet you are arguing that uniquely in the restaurant industry, it is the responsibility of the customer to pay for an employer's crimes? That doesn't make any sense.
Your arguments are the equivalent of shifting the blame for climate change onto individuals. Both are systemic problems that can only be solved through regulation, and both have an entire industry built around resisting those regulations. It isn't my fault for not tipping any more than it's my fault for having to drive a gas-powered car. I can't afford an electric car, the infrastructure where I am isn't there yet, the supply of electric cars isn't there yet, all of these are real problems that we are decades behind on solving. In the meantime, I have to get to work.
Emphasis mine. You said you don't tip, and you are stating that they wouldn't be in the wrong for not tipping. Just because you don't outright say they shouldn't tip, doesn't mean it isn't heavily implied by your wording.
We can agree that tipping should be eliminated, but if you knowingly go to a restaurant where your waiter requires tips to make a living wage, and you don't, you are most certainly AH. The solution is to not go to these restaurants.
So, you are engaging in ad hominem towards me. This is not an appropriate way to handle a situation like this. You said you agreed that things should change, let's focus on ways that we can change things for the better from a systemic manner, instead of supporting capitalist ruling classes who don't care for us average poor people and engaging in ad hominem personal attacks please.
This is not ok, i am talking from a systemic place and encouraging change to the entire system, employees should work purely for passion and not out of need in my eyes, employees who work in our current system should be paid well by their employees. Tipping should not be a requirement for customers, please stop with name calling.
Fallacy fallacy. No ad hominem here.
Stop. Name calling is personal attacks/ad hominems.
...was the full quote. Even if we accept that this is ad hominem, you would have to engage in the described behavior for it to be so, which certainly doesn't hurt their argument that you implied people shouldn't tip.
Again, as stated in other comments. People shouldn't be required to tip. employers should pay employees correctly. Tipping culture shouldn't be a thing and we should work to actually eliminate and not tolerate personal attacks on those who hold different viewpoints a clearly awful and abusive system to employees.
Agreed. They shouldn't have to, but surely we can agree that if you're going out to have a nice time, made possible by someone who you know to be greviously exploited, that it would be cruel and unfair to deny them their only real source of income? Under those conditions, surely going to a restaurant at all is immoral unless you exchange the worker's labor appropriately, whether or not this obligation should befall you in an ideal world? Surely we can agree that in that moment, you are the one who decides if that worker will receive the income they need for food, clothing, healthcare, and housing, and if you will not provide it in return for your evening of leisure, it would have been better if you had stayed home and allowed that table to be occupied by someone who would choose to fairly compensate that worker?
When i order food, the worker is always tipped by me.
I don't think you know how "minimum wage" works. It's not a suggestion, it's a legal requirement. If your tips don't make you at least minimum wage, your employer is required to make up the difference. If they're not doing that, talk to a lawyer, that's a slam dunk case. You'll get back pay.
That's all good in theory, but in practice? Look up statistics on wage theft in the restaurant industry (hell, look up wage theft as whole in the US), and you'll see that many, many workers go under paid.
And even if employers always met the minimum wage, the minimum wage is far less than a "living wage," in this country.
Again, I want to stress that the practice of tipping is absolutely outdated, and should be removed. My point is simply that not tipping your waiter does more harm to them than their employer.
We should be encouraging these places to unionize, and demand that their employers pay them fairly.
Totally agree that minimum wage is not as high as it should be. No disagreement there. My point is that workers in the restaurant industry are not uniquely able to make below minimum wage. Any employer can break the law and pay under what they're legally required to, not just in the restaurant industry. And yet we're saying that the onus for making sure this doesn't happen in the restaurant industry uniquely falls on the customers. That's just not a reasonable argument to make.
It's identical to shifting the blame for climate change from corporations to individuals. It's not a customer's fault for not tipping any more than it's Joe Schmo's fault for having a gas heater, poorly insulated house, and having to commute an hour every day in a gas car. Both can only effectively be solved through regulation.
Totally agree.
Considering that most of the country has a separate wage (under $3/hour) for employees that are expected to be tipped, YES, you absolutely are an asshole if you do not tip.
If you don't want to tip, don't go to an establishment where tipping is expected, otherwise you are just a self-centered prick
"These are not said by the employees, because of the power dynamic where if they say anything I could and would get them fired out of pure pettyness, so they just silently hope I die in a car crash on the way home."
Ftfy.
A'ight, that's cool at least as long as you tip in the current system but push for change, no prob there. But make no mistake the only reason the employee doesn't say anything is the power dynamic, they're thinkin' it!