Enough, already: why humanity must get on board with the concept of ‘sufficiency’ : degrowth

[–] [email protected] 14 points 1 week ago (3 children)

Maybe get rid of those billionaires and capitalists first before trying to survive on scraps. Nearly half of the food in grocery stores is thrown out while it's still good. Meanwhile people are now starving and there's even a return of scurvy due to malnutrition from food inflation and food insecurity.

Same with clothing. Companies like H&M shredding good clothes before throwing them out instead of giving it away or even selling them to places like Winners.

It's light were living in a global version of the Irish famine where everybody was starving and dirt poor, but they were making a fuck ton of food for the British.

And finally, what about how companies are doing programmed obsoletion of their products like electronics and appliances and design their products in a way that produces more e-waste? Or how everything is wrapped in plastic all the time? How is that the consumer's fault?

Change needs to start at the top. Cut the greedy fuckers out of the loop and you'll see how much waste we can reduce.

[–] [email protected] 10 points 1 week ago (1 children)

If you actually read the article, instead of just complained about what you presume the article contains, you would have found that it agrees with you on pretty much everything. It even gives some examples on laws and actions by different governments, which try to solve or at least help with those problems. Not perfect, but certainly a good place to start.

[–] [email protected] -2 points 1 week ago

The irritable finger-pointing is not very constructive. As you say, we mostly agree on the basics here.

[–] [email protected] 4 points 1 week ago

Change needs to start at the top. Cut the greedy fuckers out of the loop and you'll see how much waste we can reduce

Well, sort of. The top needs to change but that change won't come from them, it has to come from the bottom. Alas it doesn't and won't as voters drift towards fascism looking for easy answers from the very people causing this rather then moving the political Ovrton Window and torwards more green, sustainable radical politcans that are currently sidelined by the orthodoxy.

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2024/oct/30/richard-seymour-on-far-right-environmental-crisis-disaster-nationalism

As to "some" starving, an estimated 9 million a year starve to death

https://www.theworldcounts.com/challenges/people-and-poverty/hunger-and-obesity/how-many-people-die-from-hunger-each-year

[–] [email protected] -4 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago) (2 children)

As a plan, "cutting out the greedy fuckers" may sound satisfying but it's a bit of a dead end unless you really are advocating some kind of bloody revolution. And in that case history shows with 100% confidence that, alongside all the misery and suffering, you will just end up with another bunch of greedy fuckers at the top.

The problem is humanity. It's not them, it's us. Unfortunately there's no quick fix for that.

[–] [email protected] 5 points 1 week ago

What a load of bootlicking nonsense.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 1 week ago (1 children)

I dunno man. If you look at aboriginal peoples around the globe who still live by their old native ways like in the Amazons, in isolated parts of Asia, Africa and Australia, and how American natives used to live, I'd say they were doing pretty well before western colonization happened. Greedy fuckers would get put in their place pretty quick or cast out of their collectivity for having antisocial behavior that is typically associated with greedy people.

The greed that we know today, historically speaking, is fairly recent. With its money and loans and debt and accumulation of wealth.

So no. I disagree with your argument that it is a problem with humanity. It's a problem with a system that's been built over time by a small group of people who were craving power.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 week ago (2 children)

Your analysis is certainly pretty easy on you personally, though, isn't it? Someone else is to blame, move on. Whenever you take part in modern society - eating meat, driving and flying, buying junk and throwing it away, everything basically - it's someone else's fault, move on. Personally I choose to accept that I also have some responsibility in the matter.

As for the virtuous-native argument, I don't buy that either. For one reason: population growth. A human civilization can never be sustainable unless its population is stable. It's just basic ecology. Well, AFAIK, there is no premodern human society that has mastered this. Their populations are all increasing, just from a lower baseline, since they haven't adopted farming yet. Their impacts may be lower because the absolute numbers are lower, but the trajectory is exactly the same. I know that's not a popular opinion among the race-obsessed modern American left, but I'm a universalist so that's how I see it. The color of people's skin does not exempt them from responsibility. We're all humans, we're all implicated in this endeavor.

Jared Diamond's book Collapse contains an anecdote which is a possible caveat. Apparently some of the premodern societies of the New Guinea Highlands have, in fact, mastered birth control and so managed to stabilize their populations. But AFAIK this is very much an exception. Even if one believes that premodern society - without proper healthcare, mostly patriarchal, often violent - is superior to ours, one still has to contend with the population issue. Humans in my view are all the same. We all want the same thing, we're just progressing at different speeds towards the same reckoning.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 1 week ago (1 children)

Your analysis is certainly pretty easy on you personally, though, isn’t it? Someone else is to blame, move on. Whenever you take part in modern society - eating meat, driving and flying, buying junk and throwing it away, everything basically - it’s someone else’s fault, move on. Personally I choose to accept that I also have some responsibility in the matter.

That is such BS. I'm already living in a neighborhood with higher density with easy access to public transportation by both bus and subway, buying my food as locally as possible by going to local markets and mongers, reducing my meat consumption, trying to repair everything I own as much as possible instead of disposing and buying new an trying to keep my things to last as long as I can, reducing my energy consumption, trying to avoid plastics, composting, recycling, you name it. But I'm still limited by what's available out there that is being sold by big ass companies who only care about profit.

I'm sick and tired of putting the onus of making all the sacrifices on us, the working class, while rich assholes and companies are contributing more to pollution and global warming than anyone else. I really don't care bout you accusing me of not doing enough. You're basically defending companies and billionaires.

As for the virtuous-native argument, I don’t buy that either. For one reason: population growth. A human civilization can never be sustainable unless its population is stable. It’s just basic ecology. Well, AFAIK, there is no premodern human society that has mastered this. Their populations are all increasing, just from a lower baseline, since they haven’t adopted farming yet. Their impacts may be lower because the absolute numbers are lower, but the trajectory is exactly the same. I know that’s not a popular opinion among the race-obsessed modern American left, but I’m a universalist so that’s how I see it. The color of people’s skin does not exempt them from responsibility. We’re all humans, we’re all implicated in this endeavor.

Population growth has never been so rapid. We were never supposed to grow this fast. Again this is a modern phenomena. This has never happened until the 1700s, which is around the time that colonization was in full swing. Then modern medicine came along. Before that, population growth was pretty stable. So your argument doesn't stand.

And why do you think that modern capitalist government don't want to stop population growth and keep complaining about low birthrates? They want more people so they can have more workers, and more workers means lower wages, lower wages means more profits! They're creating this environment where life become a rat race.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 1 week ago

really don’t care bout you accusing me of

I'm not accusing you, I'm accusing us. Big difference. If you're doing your bit, that's great. Imagine how different things would look if everybody cared as much as you. Unfortunately they don't. Presumably you'll say they have busy lives, they're exploited by their capitalist bosses etc etc, so it's not their fault. All I see is a lot people saying "it's not their fault", "it's not our fault", "it's not my fault".

This has never happened until the 1700s, which is around the time that colonization was in full swing. Then modern medicine came along. Before that, population growth was pretty stable.

But "stable" population growth does not exist, by definition. It's no different from the economic variety: even 1% is exponential and will therefore prove unsustainable, since the ecosystem has not changed in size. And the record is clear. over and over, premodern civilizations have exceeded the carrying capacity of their environments and collapsed. The Amazon has repeatedly been farmed by humans whose numbers then crashed, allowing the forest to regrow. The Maya were already hitting the wall when the European colonists arrived. Same everywhere: Africa, the Pacific, and it will happen to all the supposedly harmonious societies you mention. There's nothing specially virtuous about them.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 1 week ago (1 children)

I think we can pick one story and show one thing, and then another one to show another thing. Or hell, pick the first one again to say something different than the first time.

History is a malleable thing, and what you base your argument on is a version of it, not sure it's the truth.

But the gist of what you are saying is that any people would have done what White folks did. Just give them time.

You know, I don't believe that. White folks were exceptionally OK with genocide, we always have been. Intergenerational traum, I guess, from the millenias of tragedy of the Continent.

To presume that our white trajectory is the necessary trajectory for ALL PEOPLES, because 'ecology' (which is a scholarly discipline defined by who, may I ask) is.... BONKERS.

I'm sorry, I am sure you are bright and you seem well-read and intelligent but the idea you propose as an infallibility for all humans is completely and utterly bonkers.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 1 week ago

The concept of "white folks" is entirely unscientific, it's an American cultural construction.

But yes, I am indeed saying that we just need to give other cultures time and we will all end up at the same destination. I don't essentialize humans by their arbitrary racial characteristics.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 1 week ago

And the people most amenable to it probably already need a bit more.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 1 week ago

I’m already on board, but don’t make this about me.

Degrowth