An open, user owned community for the general disscussion of the libertarian philosophy.
Most people live their own lives by that code of ethics. Libertarians believe that that code should be applied consistently, even to the actions of governments, which should be restricted to protecting people from violations of their rights. Governments should not use their powers to censor speech, conscript the young, prohibit voluntary exchanges, steal or “redistribute” property, or interfere in the lives of individuals who are otherwise minding their own business.
Source: https://www.libertarianism.org/essays/what-is-libertarianism
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We already tried the system you proposed. Before patent law existed, people who invented something new would jealously guard their knowledge to ward off competition from copycats. When they died, their knowledge died with them.
As a result, even today we cannot reproduce the work of some old masters. For example, nobody knows how to make a new Stradivarius violin.
Such a waste of human genius. Patents exist for good reason.
I would argue that the problem wasn't with the fact that IP didn't exist. Patents were made to counteract a bigger problem without actually solving the reason for the problem (and in so creating bigger problems).
The problem was that they personally gained more from that knowledge being hidden than being in the open. However if you have a system where it is more beneficial for that information being open and based on cooperation that wouldn't be a problem. Think of the open source community, if you make a tool that people use it is far better for you to let the community help with fixing bugs and improving it than just working on it on your own.
This is something I haven't considered. I'll think about it ;)
You should also consider that trademarks (another type of IP) exist to protect consumers.
Imagine trademark law were abolished. You go to the store to buy an Apple iPhone 14. When you get home, you realize that the Apple iPhone 14 box contains a flip phone with a sticker that says "Apple iPhone 14".
You bring it back to the store but they refuse to give your money back. You wanted a phone labeled "Apple iPhone 14", and that's what you got. Anyone can legally call their product "Apple iPhone 14" when trademarks are abolished.
Maybe you're thinking, "I'll just shop at Best Buy, because I know I can trust them." But without trademark law, nothing stops some rando from opening a store and naming it "Best Buy". Now who do you trust?
Ultimately, this means every purchase is going to take much longer, as you will need to fully inspect every product to avoid being ripped off. Every purchase will basically be like a Craigslist transaction. If that's what a libertarian IP paradise is like, I prefer the current system.
Trademarks make it possible for buyers to trust someone they haven't met before.
You, I like.
Stradivarius violins were made over a course of 200 years by the Stradivari family. Antonio Stradivari in particular produced violins for over 75 years! I don't think a 15 year patent would have been enough to give away their trade secrets. These were hand crafted art pieces, not mass produced items. The reality is that patent law extends all the way back to the Roman period and was mostly a legal system for emperors and kings to distribute monopolies to his favored subjects.
So I did some research and it reinforces my suspicions. Of course, having no IP protection had many clear disadvantages. But this has not prevented the development of advanced civilizations and fundamental innovations. On the contrary. Through the open exchange of knowledge, things could be created that are far greater than a human or a company can handle. IP is a child of the Enlightenment, when ideas or something intangible began to be regarded as a structure of our intellect and thus as property, just like tangible things.
I never said that lack of IP will prevent innovation. It will, however, slow it down.
The rate of technological progress accelerated considerably at the same time that IP protections were enacted.
Gutenberg developed his printing press around 1440. The first copyright law was enacted in 1710.
How many works of literature can you name that were published in the 270 years between 1440 and 1710? How many between 1710 and 1980?
By what right do you claim the fruits of somebody else's labor?
The rights of capitalism?
Fundamental to capitalism is the right to profit from others' labor when it uses something you own
If you own farmland it's your right to profit from what's grown on the land.
If you own a factory, it's your right to right to profit to what's produced by labor in that factory.
And yes, if you own an idea, it's your right to profit indefinitely from labor that uses that idea
Either you own the computers of authors and instruments of composers and brushes of painters, or that's irrelevant at best.
You're not wrong;
Authors and composers are some of the few places where labor largely correlates with ownership in our current system, and I'd definitely argue that this is a genuinely positive thing.
However, even in these fields, this is not true most of the time.
Most writing is not done under a self-ownership model. Ignoring LLMs, most writings: news articles, critic writing, advertising, etc. is done under contract (or employment) with a larger company that owns the IP of the writing, and the actual authors are directly paid only for the labor.
Music is more complicated, but my understanding is that while composers do often hold some ownership for commercial works, the more general "Music industry" publishing doesn't happen without giving up much of the ownership of the artist's works.
My point, frankly, is that framing capitalism as a system where there is no "right [to] claim the fruits of somebody else’s labor" is fundamentally, objectively, incorrect.
I said nothing at all about capitalism. I merely asked OP by what right they claim the fruits of somebody else's labor.
To that end, I'd note that the right by which those cited in your examples do so is by entering into contracts with the creators under which the creators explicitly and (more or less) voluntarily grant them that right.
And therefore, I'd say that this:
My point, frankly, is that framing capitalism as a system where there is no “right [to] claim the fruits of somebody else’s labor” is fundamentally, objectively, incorrect.
is mostly wrong.
Any right that one might invoke in order to claim the fruits of someone else's labor is a right that has been explicitly granted by the person providing the labor, and that does not exist unless and until granted.
"rights" exists in sets of rules which humanity created for a better society. Expropriation is used often to build common infrastructure - - the same (expropriation) should be used for intellectual property : when it makes societies better - - adequate monetary compensation should be given to creators.
That would be a potentially sound argument in favor of situationally (and with compensation) overriding a creator's claim to the fruits of their labors.
But that's not the issue at hand on this thread. The OP has asserted that "intellectual property should be abolished." That necessarily means that there is no presupposed right a creator might have to the fruits of their own labor, and that by extension, any and all who might be so inclined do have an unfettered right to them, with no need or even basis at any point for a determination of societal value or any form of compensation.
You're right that OP said that : "intellectual property should be abolished" and that my comment doesn't take this statement head on. Yet he also writes: "change my mind" and if you want to do this, you have to acknowledge their energy (their convictions) and try to see where that energy can go.
No - I really don't have to do that. I might have chosen to, but I didn't.
If that's what you wish to do, you're certainly free to do so.
I didn't say : "you have to change people's mind".
What I said is : "if you want to change people's mind then..."
I know - I was just being prickly.
I simply have zero patience for the NoIP position. I think it's asinine on its face - the philosophical equivalent of flat earth. And I just have no interest in taking someone who espouses it by the hand and walking them through to an idea that actually makes sense (and more to the point and as opposed to NoIP, an idea that actually lines up with the rest of the things that they already believe). I just want to tear their gibbering nincompoopery down to the ludicrous shreds in which it deserves to die and be buried and forgotten. Whether or not they can blunder their way to a better position (they couldn't hardly find a worse one) is their problem - not mine.
Ungenerous I know, but I think it's particularly important at the libertarian/minarchist/anarchist end of the spectrum that people learn to actually think instead of just mindlessly regurgitating whatever impressed them when someone else said it.
if all bad things in the universe where destroyed, other would arise. I wish you peace.
Do you mean the right of the pen and paper manufacturer or the writer of the book? Because the writer does not let the manufacturer write whatever he wants on his paper.
Though NoIP advocates generally conflate them, the nominal ownership of an original composition and the nominal ownership of a printed copy of that composition are two entirely different topics.
While I agree, the usual argument is that intellectual property provides an important incentive to creative types and the patrons who would fund their work. A total abolition of intellectual property could only be coupled with a massive shift in how modern societies function, including a universal basic income and automated labor, completely divorced from scarcity and competition. Less extreme changes, such as scaling down the number of years that IP can be claimed, are probably feasible but I can't imagine any of these being popular with the centers of wealth that already own their share. Are you after a white room discussion on the ethical merits of IP abolition or are you more of an activist looking to brainstorm how to nudge society in that direction?
You are very right about the change. I also think that a sustainable and long-term change is only feasible in stages and together with a shift in consciousness among the population. So after each small step, you can always weigh up whether it is still the right way to go.
Nevertheless, it is important to have certain ideals that make it easier to position oneself in the decisions of everyday life. It is precisely these ideals that I am concerned with in this discussion. I want to put my views to the test and challenge the views of others in a joint exchange. So it is indeed very philosophical and I am aware of that. But I think that this is the best way to test the core of a theory.
Nice, I like doing it in stages and I like the idealism. Saw you provoked some discussion over on a piracy community I sub to. Good stuff, keep at it!
I don't think it should be abolished, people should have the chance to be the only ones making money of off their original idea/design/whatever. IMO those rights need to be stripped down a lot:
The only thing I wouldn't change significantly is trademark, it's IMO reasonable to forbid others using your name (or other trademark) to pretend they're you.
I agree, it's the perpetual copyright that is really harmful. I like the idea of it lasting one generation, around 20 years. Another idea is that all IP has to be declared and maintained over time for some nominal fee. This would allow a lot more unused IP to enter the public domain simply because nobody bothers to keep renewing it at a certain point.
So long as people are required to make money in a capitalist society and creative ideas can produce said money for income, this idea is merely a fantasy. Goods cannot be the only means by which a society can produce an income.
Intellectual Property should be abolished - change my mind!
Why would I want to do that? I can however try to poke at your arguments in the effort to improve them.
In my opinion, only physical things can be possessed, that is, things that are limited, that is, that can only be in one place. The power or the freedom to do with the object what one wants corresponds to the concept of possession.
Information can be in a physical format. That means information can be physical; but it doesn't have to be. I would, however, argue that what you do with that physical object; including all the information; encoded or contained, and, in it or upon it; is also an intrinsic part of that physical property.
Therefore, I assert that owning a physical copy of information; like a book, photo, or CD/DVD/BD with some content; is the same as owning all rights to the information conferred by ownership of that object. There can be only one of that specific object; regardless of the possibility of existence of many more objects of an identical nature.
This does not mean, however, that one must expose everything openly. This is ultimately the difference between proprietary solutions, where the “construction manual” is kept to oneself, and the open source philosophy, where this source is accessible to everyone.
It is also possible, through the same rights conferred upon you through physical ownership, for a previous owner or even the inventor/manufacturer of the object to protect data on a given object with various methods. Intrinsically, objects that do this in a way you find objectionable are worth less to you than one with no such complications in extracting the desired data. This is the nature of DRM, and you should never buy physical items with protected content on it. All Consumers must agree that such things are absolutely worthless objects to them.
Coming from the viewpoint that the greatest threat to free markets is the artificial beings created by government called "corporations", I fully believe that some form of IP, appropriately time-limited and only licensable, not transferable, is a perfectly valid way to protect individual human creators, but that it cannot be granted to anything other than natural human citizens.
It's not about prevention of use by others, it's about prevention of monetization by others...
Sure, I'm also more of a civil/technolibertarian. I fear the power of the government and the power of big corporations equally. There are different ways to mitigate this problem but the main ones are:
And as you see I'm leaning towards the second one. Bear in mind that the corpos arent the only ones who can copy everything and redistribute it. Everything they make is also freely accessible. I think many people tend to forget that abolishing IP is a bigger threat to corporations than small individuals. Just think about it: Could monopolists as big as Microsoft, Google, Apple still exist if every invention could be copied by other big companies? Wouldn't they be more likely to keep each other in check, so that no one could achieve such an oversize?
This is a ridiculous argument. In your world, how would anyone who makes an intangible product ever be fairly compensated if you could just steal it? Things like books, songs, video games, films do take real effort, time, care, talent, and loads of hard work to create, and if someone consumes that, they need to pay the creators for that consumption. Your view is rather myopic because a society doesn't just produce tangible, physical products, but many other intangible products and services. For example, Tolkien wrote and created the entire LotR world, why should his property not be protected so that he can earn some money from all that hard work if some customer wants to consume it? Because it certainly takes an immense amount of work and talent to create something. As someone else mentioned, you have no right to claim the fruits of anyone's labour.
I find a lot of people make the argument you're making to try and justify their own theft of IP. But those same people sing an entirely different song the moment someone else begins to steal from them. I certainly hope that happens to you someday, that your hard work is not fairly compensated or stolen from you, so you can understand it from the opposite perspective too.
In your world, how would anyone who makes an intangible product ever be fairly compensated if you could just steal it? Things like books, songs, video games, films do take real effort, time, care, talent, and loads of hard work to create, and if someone consumes that, they need to pay the creators for that consumption.
There are ton of creators on twitch that get money thrown at them when you can watch their content for free. They have ads, but they still get money thrown at them. People know that if you like something you need to support it if you want more.
We have platforms like patreon or Kickstart to fund creators and proyects.
I find a lot of people make the argument you're making to try and justify their own theft of IP. But those same people sing an entirely different song the moment someone else begins to steal from them. I certainly hope that happens to you someday, that your hard work is not fairly compensated or stolen from you, so you can understand it from the opposite perspective too.
I'm a programmer and you can copy all my code, I don't mind, if we all collaborate we can create better things. You can copy my application or my code, but you can't copy my way of thinking, I will always be ahead.