Privacy
A place to discuss privacy and freedom in the digital world.
Privacy has become a very important issue in modern society, with companies and governments constantly abusing their power, more and more people are waking up to the importance of digital privacy.
In this community everyone is welcome to post links and discuss topics related to privacy.
Some Rules
- Posting a link to a website containing tracking isn't great, if contents of the website are behind a paywall maybe copy them into the post
- Don't promote proprietary software
- Try to keep things on topic
- If you have a question, please try searching for previous discussions, maybe it has already been answered
- Reposts are fine, but should have at least a couple of weeks in between so that the post can reach a new audience
- Be nice :)
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much thanks to @gary_host_laptop for the logo design :)
A truly better signal is one that's not using a centralized service.
I don't see an issue as signal is designed not to trust the server. Signal also uses sealed sender and Perfect Forward Secrecy, which is something almost all e2ee messengers lack. What it means in practice is signal leaks very little if any metadata, if you leak metadata you give away details about who your talking to and for how long, etc. Examples might include talking with a suicide hotline, or a doctor, maybe a customer service agent at a company and for how long. Those details will give a lot away about you, even if the messages or calls themselves are encrypted. Matrix is not recommended for communication because it fails to properly hide metadata and actively trusts the servers. When you make a call on signal, as long as both users have "Always Relay Calls" set to disabled, your calls will be peer to peer instead of trusting a central server to facilitate the connection and trusting a middle man. What this means is since the connection is peer to peer you can leak your IP address to the user you're talking to, however a VPN fixes this issue.
Thanks for taking the time to reply. There are multiple issues with centralization.
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A prime one is that the entity that you (have no choice but to) trust today will eventually turn against you at some point down the road. In the case of Signal, the writing is on the wall already: using a 3rd party client is against Signal's ToS, and Signal has been seen pushing controversial features like crypto payments that, as a user of their captive ecosystem, you have no choice but to engage with.
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Signal is an entity that's incorporated in a jurisdiction and might be compelled by law not to provide service for certain users, or to degrade its encryption to comply with the local regulator. Using a centralized service like Signal makes you an easily identifiable/prime target in such a scenario.
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No matter what Signal says, nobody but themselves can verify what code runs on their servers, and what amount of logging/data processing goes there. Because every account checks in through them, because every message is routed through them, there is no technical barrier to knowing who's who, who's talking to whom and when, with the nature of the communication (text, video, image, …) from which a lot can be inferred. As far as I understand the American law, any agency could tap into that, either directly, or via Amazon on which the whole thing is running. I am not paranoid enough to believe that 3 letter agencies belong to one's typical threat model, but with SGX contact discovery from phone number and sealed senders, Signal kindah panders to those? Either way, those are unverifiable mitigations to problems that decentralized systems do not have.
I could go on and on, but the first one is the main one IMO: we are past the need to trust anybody with our instant messaging and put a fundamental aspect of our lives at the mercy of (geo)political and societal woes. That's practically a solved problem in the opensource world, and we can make it ethical and sustainable by just opting out of the dominative model of monopolistic and centralized systems.
A prime one is that the entity that you (have no choice but to) trust today will eventually turn against you at some point down the road.
- How does that change with federation, you always trust someone. Why should I trust the shady person running software on their basement, even if you self host, you are trusting the developers not to ship bad or poorly written code.
using a 3rd party client is against Signal's ToS
As far as it being against signals tos, molly exists and had not received any problems from the signal foundation to my knowledge, discord has the same clause and they don't seem to give a rats ass. Sure they could enforce it but they don't, and personally with how matrix clients are handled they have mixed security, fluffychat has security issues ranging from outdated SDK versions to quite literally ddosing homeservers because of a non-existent rate limit.
pushing controversial features like crypto payments
The crypto stuff wasn't great but you know what's cool? You don't have to use it. Simple as that. You don't have to engage with it and you and I both know that. It's buried in settings and you have to find it yourself.
Signal is an entity that's incorporated in a jurisdiction and might be compelled by law or to degrade its encryption to comply with the local regulator.
- I've always used integrity as a metric as to how trustworthy a service is, and in terms of signals e2ee, they've never lied about it, it's been proven in court multiple times not having any data on their users, no government can compel anyone or any company for things they don't have. Signal had everything to lose by lying about their encryption and nothing to gain, so why would they? Why would any company take a huge chance at a death blow just because? Signal is a non profit so they don't have any incentive to degrade it, they would be dead tomorrow if they got caught.
Using a centralized service like Signal makes you an easily identifiable/prime target in such a scenario.
Signal is not an anonymity tool, and has never been advertised as such, if you need anonymity, signal is not a good choice. You can make it more anonymous by using a burner phone but that's a different topic.
No matter what Signal says, nobody but themselves can verify what code runs on their servers
- You can't really confirm what any software can or cannot do, even if it runs on your system. Open source software is bound to the same principals of code, it will do exactly what you tell it to do, even if it is not intended (a 0-day, bug, etc.). Thousands of people constantly are monitoring the Linux kernel and it is still found to have tons of 0 days baked in due to it running a fuck ton on ring zero. You can't just inspect code and know exactly what it's doing, unless it's a hello world program it gets quite complicated. Verified safety numbers also make sure that no man-in-the-middle attacks can take place, making conversations even more trustworthy and still not trusting any server.
As far as I understand the American law, any agency could tap into that, either directly, or via Amazon on which the whole thing is running.
If everything is encrypted, what could Amazon tap? You do realize sealed sender and PFS take away any trust from the server correct? It's all encrypted, your aren't trusting the server at all, it's completely trust-less, and unless you think Amazon or governments can at this very moment tap any encrypted data and decrypt it, I would recommend taking a walk outside and realize that no one, NO ONE can decrypt current encrypted standards.
Unless you can point me to a reputable article showing in great detail that signal is lying about their e2ee claims then I'll rest my case. Signal has been proven time and time again to not have any data on their users except the minimum required for the service to work, that's called integrity.
Also there will always be someone you trust on the internet, nothing will change that unless we completely rethink how the internet works.
Edit: added quotes Edit 2: added extra info
Yes and no. decentralization is great for a lot of reasons but it does come with downsides. I don't know about you, but i convinced my family and friends to use and keep Signal for years now and i don't think i would have had such luck with Matrix/Element, let alone a p2p app.
I'm glad decentralized options exist and think they deserve more funding and love, however.
My family uses Matrix, and if some don't, I don't talk to them online.
Look at https://simplex.im/ then. It's work in progress but the design is good.
But I'm glad to have a better Signal client too.
Some interesting thoughts on this from the Signal creator: https://signal.org/blog/the-ecosystem-is-moving/
He is dodgy af. Doesn't want any Signal forks (Molly being the only one tolerated) and won't let them connect to the server. That's why the open source version LibreSignal was shut down. He also doesn't want Signal to be on F-Droid, a store which only allows 100% free/open source software.
Take everything coming out of his mouth with a grain of salt.
Totally agreed the project's actions against the community are shit. From a LibreSignal issue:
I understand that federation and defined protocols that third parties can develop clients for are great and important ideas, but unfortunately they no longer have a place in the modern world.
This sounds like a jaded, cynical individual. It's hilarious, sad, probably even delusional. How do they think the Internet and their operating systems work in this "modern world"? Magic fairy dust? It's difficult, thankless work put in by loads of people around the world despite enormous commercial pressure to do otherwise. Over decades. I respect Signal's work, but it's boneheaded attitudes like moxie's which impede progress, especially for the younger generations.
And an objection by the author of a popular XMPP client: https://gultsch.de/objection.html
Yeah and that doesn't change the fact that decentralization is better for freedom
Yes. You're right. When you make a post you probably should give a body to it rather than just a link to a project. Why do you think it's a better signal? Otherwise people aren't going to find it super useful
Now if someone could make a desktop app (perhaps using Qt or some similar cross-platform toolkit) that isn’t Electron bloatware, for all the people who don’t have a few spare CPU cores and gigabytes of RAM to spend on a messaging client.
You got to be careful as signal as sent S&D letters
There’s Flare, a Signal client written in GTK4. It still has some features missing iirc, check their wiki for that.
I don't understand. What makes Molly more trustworthy than Signal, if they both use the same central sever? The website doesn't really provide much data.
It has a completely Foss option and reenables pin codes
It also has a F-droid repo which makes it much easier for me to use
I've been using Molly on my GrapheneOS phone for about a year. It's been pretty great so far.
Molly on Graphene is the only way to live.
Been solid so far!
I have been fulltime Molly on Graphene for over a year and a half, zero glitches or issues.
Does it allow you to exchange messages with people on non-FOSS OSes?
Yeah, I message one of my friends who has stock Android and stock Signal.
This is actually more than welcome. I never understood why you could have your signal on your phone and ipad, but not on two phones. Applaud molly to do so!
What is the difference between regular signal app I am on iOS so doesn’t matter just curious?
Molly is only available on Android, as far as differences it is a hardened fork of signal with an encrypted database, what that means in practice is even if someone was actively probing your phone to try to gain access to messages they wouldn't be able to due to the encryption. It's very useful if you are an active target or you don't trust your phone os to play nice. I personally use it myself and really like it but in general it's not terribly different.
Yeah I realize it is android only and that makes sense that is exactly what I was looking for surprised signal doesn’t encrypt the database honestly.
They used to. Then they removed it. And Molly forked and put it back in.
The main issue with encrypting the database using Molly's setup is you'll miss notifications and calls until you unlock, this might be able to be fixed using a different database encryption setup but as it stands it would be inconvenient for many.
The RAM shredding feature seems kind of silly to me, but I don't know the details. Ideally the operating system should clear pages before giving them to other applications... While I can see the appeal in also doing it in the application, it seems kinda wasteful, and I wouldn't trust the application to do a good job of that anyway. If the point is to prevent the app itself from leaking private keys on a buffer overflow or whatever... I guess I can see the value of that, but I'd rather see mitigations for the buffer overflows highlighted instead. I guess this just makes me a little suspicious of the actual value provided by the app.