this post was submitted on 01 Sep 2023
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Fuck Cars

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Dutch residents will have to ditch their cars for sustainable transport system (nltimes.nl)
submitted 1 year ago by [email protected] to c/[email protected]
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To build a fully climate-neutral transport system in the Netherlands, many citizens will have to give up their cars, Jan Willem Eirsman, the government’s new chief climate adviser as chairman of the Scientific Climate Council, told the AD.

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[–] [email protected] 75 points 1 year ago (7 children)

If only our public transport was affordable. We pay way more than other European countries (besides maybe Germany and the Scandinavian countries), especially when you consider how little distance you're really travelling. As an example, to get from Eindhoven central station to Amsterdam central station you take 1 train, it takes you 1 hour and 20 minutes and you pay €22,70 for a one way ticket. If we're looking at distance, this is about 120 km. This means that to get there and go back home you pay €45,40.

If you travel by yourself you can argue that it's worth it to take the train there since parking + fuel isn't that cheap here either. However, as soon as you have more than 1 person the car quickly becomes the cheaper option, even with parking included. As long as they don't solve this issue I don't see any success in their push to get people to use public transport. And I know the solution will probably be to make everything even more expensive but that's not going to help in the long run either...

[–] [email protected] 37 points 1 year ago

In most countries the maintenance costs for highways are funded from the budget of the country, and thus split on the whole population. Those amounts are not included when someone makes a cost calculation for driving from A to B, unless one has to pay for a vignette for using the highway.
Also the cost of the car maintenance per kilometer is often not taken into account.

What is also annoying is that the budget allocated for the maintenance of the railway infrastructure is in most countries a lot less than that allocated for road infrastructure, further increasing the costs of train tickets (and thus the apparent cost of train travel) when compared to road travel.

[–] [email protected] 21 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (2 children)

A lot of people only tend to look at the fuel costs and maybe parking. However you're forgetting a big part of the costs of driving which is that every km adds to the depreciation in the cars worth as well as requiring more maintenance.

It's very easy to say just buying fuel is pretty cheap, but those costs are easily doubled if you look at the full costs. Check out https://www.anwb.nl/auto/autokosten for examples of how much variable costs/km actually are.

That said, this is for solo travelers... It's true that when you add more people the costs become much lower / person if you go by car since the costs just get multiplied with public transport. Exactly why my next vacation with 4 people will still be by car...

However I've started taking the train for work now which still comes out a lot lower (40% discount outside of rush hours helps a lot too!)

[–] [email protected] 7 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Thanks for the link, I never had a look at that before. If I look at my car, the variable costs per km (without the fuel) are €0,15 per km. The fixed costs are only interesting if you don't have a car and are looking at getting one, I have to pay those costs regardless of whether I leave it at home or not. That means that taking the car in my example above would add another €18 which does change things a little bit.

However, my main point was that people would flock to public transport if they were using the prices you sometimes see in other countries. For example, in Italy it costs me around €10 to get a return ticket from Florence to Pisa. The trains are slightly less fancy of course but they're still very serviceable. If they could make it so you pay maybe €30 for a return ticket from Eindhoven to Amsterdam, it would make it a lot more enticing to take the train.

[–] [email protected] 4 points 1 year ago

No yeah agreed I wish they'd make it cheaper too.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Depreciation and tax and insurance is mostly a sunk cost. Once you have a car, these are mostly irrelevant when comparing to public transport.

[–] [email protected] 4 points 1 year ago (1 children)

If I were to drive my car to work I would double the amount I drive per year. If you don't think this adds a lot of costs then I don't know what to tell you. If you drive somewhere incidentally sure, it doesn't really matter.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 1 year ago (1 children)

You can save on insurance if you're not commuting for work, too. I'm classified as a leisure driver since my work is remote.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 year ago

I actually do work remote but come in once a week... Which happens to be a long commute 🤷‍♂️

[–] [email protected] 14 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Feel free to tell me if I'm wrong but I think it's cheaper to subsidise public transport than to build and maintain car infrastructure. The way I see it is that every euro spent on making transport cheaper is 2 euros saved.

[–] [email protected] 4 points 1 year ago

Oh I fully agree with you, it's just that it doesn't seem like they invest much in public transport. It feels like you hear more about lines closing down and capacity on the line going down than new lines being created.

[–] [email protected] 11 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Sounds like you've got public transit costs on par with America. What's a city bus ride cost?

As a New Yorker I'm deeply envious of your rail network. I'd kill for Amtrak to have that kind of coverage even at current prices.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 1 year ago

Last month I had to pay $14 for a one stop return ticket because we got on a Long Island train instead of the metro at Jamaica. Stupid prices.

[–] [email protected] 7 points 1 year ago (2 children)

Germany has monthly local public transport passes for 49€ for all local public transport including regional trains. So if you wanted to go that kind of distance, you propbaly buy that instead and use public transport for some trips in the city or for some other trip. For groups some states have state passes, which can be very cheap as well. Lower Saxony for example has the Niedersachsenticket, which is 25€ for the first person, another 6€ for the next and then 5€ for each of the next three people. That works for a day after 9am for all regional public transport in the state. So you could get everybody within a normal sized car on a similar distance for 46€.

In other words, I am sorry, but public transport in the Netherlands is more expensive then in Germany. At least it is on time thou.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (2 children)

That pass doesn't cover trains you actually want to take between regions. It's basically a subway pass equivalent.

Source: I still pay €25 to go to the nearest city because it's a 1+ hour train ride and going local station to local station sucks. Yes I have been busted by the Deutche Bahn employee checking Tickets and thought the country wide pass worked.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 year ago

Schwarzfahrer!

But no, that sucks. 49 pass seems a big upgrade but not ideal it doesn't work inter-region.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Ulm- München is abou 120km and it takes to 2:00 by regional train. Berlin - Magdeburg is also similar and at about 1:45. Both can be used using that pass.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

Aalen to Stuttgart can't. Stuttgart to München Can't.

"using that pass" means not taking the direct train line. And stopping locally.

Don't ask me, ask a DB employee telling me that pass isn't valid for those connections.

Edit: here's the carve out

Please note, however, that the Deutschland-Ticket is not valid on trains operated by DB Fernverkehr AG or other long-distance providers such as FlixTrain (e.g. IC, EC, ICE, as well as RE operated by DB Fernverkehr AG). DB Fernverkehr is currently in talks with the German state governments and authorities about exceptions on certain sections of line.

The Deutschland-Ticket is currently also permitted for long-distance trains (IC, EC, ICE) between Rostock Hbf and Stralsund Hbf.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 year ago

Sounds like a nice concept, I wish we had something like that here. And you might think trains run on time but there's actually quite a lot of delays recently. Because our network is relatively small and almost everything passes through Utrecht all it takes is 1 minor disruption somewhere around there and it's mayhem.

[–] [email protected] 7 points 1 year ago (2 children)

The trains and subways are already very full. Just making things cheaper will not be enough. We need to massively invest in new lines and more frequent trains everywhere.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 1 year ago

One of the train companies here are using a 3 coach commuter train for long intercity travel. It's extremely unpleasant, people are always standing in the aisle and sitting on their suitcases by the doors.

I honestly have no idea why they can't just... make the train longer?! The 30 min frequency is not an issue for me, although it isn't great. The constant overcrowding on the other hand is horrible.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 1 year ago

That's because NS is trying to cheap out on things for some reason. You keep hearing about them removing trains from the schedule or shortening them.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Bristol to London is about 1hr20m, ok it's 185km so a bit longer, but the cost of a peak time return is £252.80. So it could be worse if your country decided to privatise the rail services, a natural monopoly, while keeping infrastructure and strike costs public.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 year ago

Oh they privatised it alright. It's just that the government holds all stocks for the company. So they have to subsidize the losses while fat CEO pigs run off with the profits.

[–] [email protected] 36 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (2 children)

Dutchman here. Our government has been systematically gutting funding for public transport. I have to extend my commute from 40 minutes to 2 hours if I want to take public transport. It's also unreliable and outrageously expensive since they run it through the "free market".

Fuck cars but there's also no way in hell I will sell my car before they introduce some massive changes to our public transport.

[–] [email protected] 13 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Our government has been systematically gutting funding for public transport.

silent privatization

[–] [email protected] 5 points 1 year ago (1 children)

The one thing the EU is fucking up, forcing the free market where we don't want it

[–] [email protected] 6 points 1 year ago

Its only doing that because it has been told to. We should tell it to stop.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I used to live there back in 2015. What're the prices for intercity trains these days? I remember NL trains being very cheap (€20 Amsterdam to Mastricht). Here in the UK is £50 from Cambridge to London (roughly a ⅓ the distance) so I hope you're still doing better than here

With that said, I hope you get some more green/left types in government this time around. I'm watching your election closely from here!

[–] [email protected] 2 points 1 year ago

Amsterdam to Maastricht will set you back 30 euros these days.

[–] [email protected] 7 points 1 year ago (2 children)

Yes of course long term we will need to get rid of privately owned (but not shared) cars, but time is far in the future. Even here in NL the infrastructure just isn't there for it. Yet.

And we have no real government at the moment, and god help us with the elections coming up.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I enjoy driving, sightseeing, going on mountain roads. I don't see public transport ever offering that.

[–] [email protected] 6 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Which is why shared cars as opposed to everyone or every household owning one makes sense. You'll be more thoughtful of when you need it rather than using it because it's always there.

[–] [email protected] -1 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (3 children)

This creates availability issues for me and demand of cars issues for the market which translate immediately in loss of jobs for those who work in the sector, even mechanics and the ones who change your tires. Also the sentence "you'll be more thoughtful of when you need it" doesn't make sense. If I need it and it's not there what am I supposed to do? Oh, well I should have thought about it. How could I know when I needed it? And I'm not too fond of people in general. Having some stranger drive my, ehm, our car? No.

[–] [email protected] 4 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

I love statements like this. It's basically someone just deciding that gravity is inconvenient, so it won't apply to them.

The world is on fire dude, and the only way it doesn't get worse (we're not even talking about fixing it at this point) is to dramatically change the way we live. Private car ownership is a big part of that. Your preference for living in a way incompatible with life on the planet does not entitle you to it.

But here's the good news: you can still have a private car. You can even live in a distant suburb and the car can run on gasoline... but you're going to have to pay for it. And you're going to pay the actual cost to society for that preference, so it's going to be very, very expensive.

Or you know, you can just take the train and plan your roadtrip holidays in advance.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

Mechanics are going to be downsized with all the EV sales anyway. They just don't need as much maintenance. I have had a Chevy Bolt since 2018. I haven't had any routine maintenance, and I've just had to take the thing to the dealership once for a major recall, where they just flashed the BIOS. Admittedly, I don't drive near as much as I used to, I've only put 60,000 miles on the ODO so far.

[–] [email protected] -2 points 1 year ago

That leaves out a ton of people from dealerships to engineers, from body repairs shops to carwashes, from manufacture to after market components. And we've got two cars per household. Let's see how it goes with a quarter or less that. No.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 1 year ago (1 children)

The sharing concept is more like a Uber type deal, there is always a car available sort of thing. It's not really a sharing with a neighbor or family member type thing where you are SOL if the shared car is not in your driveway.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

That brings the same economic collapse to the automotive industry and deprives you of the fun of driving while jacking up the prices.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 1 year ago (1 children)

What do you mean about no real government? Did they all go on holiday/vacation?

[–] [email protected] 4 points 1 year ago

There's an interim government until the elections as there was some drama causing the previous government to fall.

[–] [email protected] 7 points 1 year ago (1 children)

They already cry when you suggest eating a little bit less meat.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 1 year ago

Why would you care what anyone chooses to eat?

[–] [email protected] 6 points 1 year ago (2 children)

They already bike everywhere.

[–] [email protected] 24 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I wish :( The city centers are very walkable and there's plenty of safe bicycle infrastructure, but cars are still very clearly the dominant mode of transport. Every weekend there's queues to the parking garages in every part of the city.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 1 year ago

I like the way most city centers are set up but I think public transport coverage should be improved in most places before the government starts trying to push people out of their cars. My local municipality is trying the same thing and making the same mistake, they're not improving public transport but they are trying to discourage people from coming by car. How is that supposed to work if you can't even get there properly if you live in a part of town that either has no connection or it takes you 3 to 4 times as long as it would take you by car to take the bus?

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 year ago

Yeah I mean just look at the bike parking at the F1 the other week.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 1 year ago

For example, the earth only has so much of the precious metals needed for electric car batteries.

They're largely found in China too