this post was submitted on 27 May 2024
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June 2: People’s Park Solidarity (victoriaanarchistreadingcircle.ca)
submitted 5 months ago by [email protected] to c/[email protected]
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[–] [email protected] -5 points 5 months ago (2 children)

Which borders should a Palestinian state be given?

Why do you feel that the border results of that particular war matter more than any other war (that came before, or that has come after)?

Nobody seems to be able to answer these questions without massive hypocrisy when the same logic is applied to other countries whose borders were also formed as the result of wars.

It's like there's some sort of cut-off date right after WW2 where people feel nobody should be allowed to invade anyone else.

Except for Israel, where the Arab side didn't like the result of the plan that was drawn up and voted on by the UN (even though it had far more land that they currently have) rejected it, and had all of the neighboring Arab countries invade Israel literally the day after the British withdrew as their mandate to handle the area ended. They initially took a bunch of land before Israel threw their asses out and recaptured even more territory, and the Palestinians have been fighting about the results ever since.

No, instead it's Israel's fault for fighting back against the constant violence from Palestinians (mostly funded by external sources from Arab countries)

Does it suck that Palestinians are dying? Yes. Did they lose a war they started? Yes Did they choose to continue violence after they lost? Yes

So why is Israel the bad guy here?

If Ukraine retakes their territory, including Crimea, are we going to call them the bad guy if they continue to kill Russians who keep attacking them across the border? Would we call them the bad guy if they push into Russia a few kilometers to establish safer borders for their people?

[–] [email protected] 2 points 5 months ago (1 children)

Which borders should a Palestinian state be given?

Personally, I say go back to 1967, do a "land back" divestment of territory taken and make reparations consisting of both money and supportive resources. With international support, given the role of the international community.

Why do you feel that the border results of that particular war matter more than any other war (that came before, or that has come after)?

Because that was, as I understand it (which is far from complete), the final straw for the Palestinian nation's quest for autonomy and security.

Nobody seems to be able to answer these questions without massive hypocrisy when the same logic is applied to other countries whose borders were also formed as the result of wars.

It's not hypocrisy to grow and change over time, as long as one acknowledges the failures of the past.

It's like there's some sort of cut-off date right after WW2 where people feel nobody should be allowed to invade anyone else.

Exactly! This is the "growing and changing" I spoke of earlier. We know better. We know that nations need autonomy and security, that countries need autonomy and security, and that individuals need autonomy and security. In the years and decades following the two world wars (especially WWII), a very large fraction of the planet came together under the auspices of international organizations, including the UN, in recognition of those facts with the desire to fix things, once and for all.

There have been and will continue to be missteps and outright failures. Neither should cause us to dismiss the goals or give them up as a lost causes. Instead, every failure should rally us in a redoubling of effort.

In my opinion, that is what we are seeing, a redoubling of effort in response to an abject failure to conform to the new standards we have set for ourselves as a global community.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 5 months ago

If you want end of 1967 borders there would be no Palestinian state at all. There would be no land to give back. Israel controlled the entire region including Gaza, the Westbank, the Sinai peninsula.

Or are you talking about returning to BEFORE the six day war?

The one that was started by Egypt banning Israeli vessels from the straights of Tiran AGAIN despite what happened a decade prior? Supported by three other Arab countries.

Should there be no consequences for countries who cause wars? Egypt's president even took responsibility for it after the failure.

If Egypt (or the other arab neighbors) care so much about the Palestinians, they could take them in as citizens. Instead they're building even more walls to keep them out. Their attacks have never been about Palestinians, or establishing a Palestinian state, it's always been about eliminating Israel. That's why they keep turning down perfectly good plans, and invading instead.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 5 months ago (1 children)

It’s like there’s some sort of cut-off date right after WW2 where people feel nobody should be allowed to invade anyone else.

Is like they made this whole solidarity league to prevent and dissuade belligerent invasions.

[blah blah, israel is pure and perfect]

You want to be a little more objective.

[–] [email protected] -3 points 5 months ago

Nobody said they're pure or perfect, but you can't argue that they didn't get invaded.

Are countries allowed to fight invaders or not?