this post was submitted on 02 May 2024
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141
‘Indefensible’: UK prisoner jailed for 23 months killed himself after being held for 17 years (theguardian.com)
submitted 6 months ago by [email protected] to c/[email protected]
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[–] [email protected] 108 points 6 months ago* (last edited 6 months ago) (2 children)

So, to sum up, from 2005 to 2012, the UK had a scheme (always love that word, neutral in most British dialects but delightfully menacing in American English) for certain repeat offenders where you would be sentenced to a minimum with no designated end date, just when the parole board thought you were sufficiently rehabilitated, though you remained on parole indefinitely as well.

When it was revoked, because "life but with the possibility of parole after two years" is a pretty bizarre idea and a palpably insane sentence for anything short of various homicide and sexual assault charges, it was only going forward. They didn't retroactively cap the prisoners' sentences.

Official figures published last week show 2,796 people given IPPs remain in prison today. Of those, 1,179 have never been released and 705 are more than 10 years beyond their original sentence.

I'm an American. Our system is, on the whole, obviously much worse, tragically worse, but this seems like an oddly Dickensian nightmare in a country that's generally much more humane, though still struggling with a weird sort of muscularly classist paternalism.

[–] [email protected] 24 points 6 months ago* (last edited 6 months ago) (1 children)

I've lived in a couple of countries in Europe including the UK and the idea that the system in Britain is generally humane is pretty naive.

The Justice System in Britain is to a very large extent a tool to Keep People In Their Proper Place and like the Political system and other Power systems over there, the end result of uninterrupted centuries of maybe the most classist mindset in the whole of Europe and one of the lowest levels of social mobility in the continent.

Absolutelly, if you are wealthy or well connected the system will be very "humane" for you and if you're Middle Class you'll probably be alright. Poor people ... well ... as long as they only harm other poor people (or foreigners) they might be alright (hence the phenomenon of Hooliganism), otherwise the book will be thrown at them.

There really is quite the extraordinary "some people are inherently superior to other people" mindset going on in there and that's reflected in the uneveness of the treatment given to people by the Justice System and the exceedingly cold and extremelly punitive sentencing reserved for "lesser" people.

The style of violence of the various British Power Systems reflects the style of violence of the Posh Elites: nothing so crude as physical violence involving guns, rather complex rule structures designed with enough flexibility to on one side let the "right people" through and on the other crush the "wrong people" in their machinery, as well as goon-like police force compose of people from a working class background who see themselves as above the common working class and can thus often behave with that very special kind of cruel obedience found in those who both think they're now better than the place from where they came, yet fear they might fall back if they don't execute their orders with gusto.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 6 months ago (1 children)

oddly Dickensian nightmare in a country that's generally much more humane

the idea that the system in Britain is generally humane is pretty naive

You do understand that's not what he wrote. Right?

Like, do you get that it was a nightmare system in contrast with a society a little more humane than America? (A bit of a low bar)

naive

[–] [email protected] 1 points 6 months ago* (last edited 6 months ago)

Re-read my post.

It's not a significantly more humane society, it's just inhumane in different ways than America and the Justice System there reflects that.

A system designed to slowly crush the less well off that "don't know their place" for the rest of their lives might seem more humane than one were the police will just shoot them (especially if having the "wrong" skin color) but in terms of hurt inflicted the former might very well be worse than the latter because it's basically lifelong torture. Also read all about Britain's past: they got rid of Slavery and a few years later reinstated it as Indentured Servitude (and tell everybody they were the first country to outlaw Slavery, which is a pretty typical example of the local way in which bad things are just rebranded, not stopped and the rebranding is shamelessly used for image polishing purpose) plus had things like Workhouses all the way to the XX century - the Edwardian Era Britain (the real deal, were household servants were supposed to turn to the wall and look away when the master of the house was passing, not the hyper beautified version of British period series and movies) never got torn down by Revolution or anything similar, it just got buried under extra layers of social norms and a relentless cultural push to rewrite the common perception of it via deceitfully portraying it (such as in the above mentioned period series and movies).

The cruelty in such a system is much harder to spot than in the bloody police violence you see in America (and it's so by design) so people outside Britain tend to have quite a rosy view of the place, which is only natural until you figure the culture and forms of the English upper classes not just in their exercise of power and authority but in the way they interact with the "lower" classes and even each other. Hence my use of the word "naive" (as in naive about Britain, rather than generally naive) which I expected to be not insulting (I supposed I could've used "interesting" or "curious", and Brits would definitelly have got the implied insult).

[–] [email protected] 10 points 6 months ago

[...] an oddly Dickensian nightmare in a country that's generally much more humane, though still struggling with a weird sort of muscularly classist paternalism

You can add to that a very unhealthy admiration for the USA

[–] [email protected] 55 points 6 months ago (4 children)

This is the death penalty with extra steps.

[–] [email protected] 31 points 6 months ago* (last edited 6 months ago) (1 children)

This feels worse somehow. With the death penalty there is a finality to sentencing, these people are stuck on an ever speeding treadmill of despair chasing hope like it’s a carrot on a string. Even if they get out, due to the conditionality of their original sentence, they can be thrown right back in with the flick of a pen. Like Sisyphus to his boulder these people are bound to sadness perpetually stuck in a state of fear.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 6 months ago

Don't ppl on death row not get an official date for their execution? It was my understanding that it can come at anytime unless they're currently going through appeals. At least in the US but I'm not 100%

[–] [email protected] 10 points 6 months ago

^ fewer steps

The death penalty usually requires silly things like trials and burdens of evidence. With this one simple trick you get straight to the "good" part.

[–] [email protected] 4 points 6 months ago* (last edited 6 months ago)

More like loophole death penalty:

  • These people are pretty much convicted to die in jail but since it's not officially Death Penalty or even a Life Sentence, the standard of evidence and possibilities of appeal are much lower, the oversight from external actors (such as the Press or Human Rights Organisations) is comparativelly non-existent, as are side effects with international partners (for example, extradition from many European countries to Britain would be much harder or even impossible if they had the Death Penalty or even a Life Sentence).

This is exactly the kind of way English Politicians and the English Upper Class create rules and pass measures to do pretty cruel things behind a façade which is almost the opposite.

Just ask the Irish.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 6 months ago (1 children)

It's the death penalty minus the execution.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 6 months ago

This is the death penalty minus a lot of the overhead.

[–] [email protected] 50 points 6 months ago* (last edited 6 months ago) (2 children)

It's always shocking to me when a story like this comes out of a place that isn't Russia, China, or The US.
Absolutely abhorrent.

[–] [email protected] 14 points 6 months ago (1 children)

Why? Cruelty isn't exclusive to those 3

[–] [email protected] 2 points 6 months ago (1 children)

No, but they are some of the worst.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 6 months ago* (last edited 6 months ago) (1 children)

Historically all three are doing light work compared to Europe

[–] [email protected] 38 points 6 months ago (1 children)

It's a life sentence. This is just a rebranded life sentence with the added bonus that those who are paroled stay on parole for life.

It's just that it sounds bad when you say someone is getting a life sentence for petty crimes. It sounds a lot nicer when you only mention the minimum jail time they'll have before being eligible for parole, and justify it as being for everyone's protection.

[–] [email protected] 9 points 6 months ago* (last edited 6 months ago)

Specious stated justification aside, they are probably trying to incentivise rehab and good behavior while in prison.

Decent idea on its face, but it's all in the execution (ouch)

[–] [email protected] 27 points 6 months ago (1 children)

Campaigners have described IPPs as a “death sentence by the back door”. The rate of self-harm among IPP prisoners is more than twice that of the general prison population and there have been 90 self-inflicted deaths of prisoners on IPPs in custody since they were introduced in April 2005, according to the United Group for Reform of IPP. The figures do not include suicides in the community.

Yeah ... it's a death sentence for many.

[–] [email protected] 9 points 6 months ago

Yeah, because there’s no light at the end of the tunnel. Indefinite prison sentences means the prisoner has nothing to look forward to once they realize the parole board isn’t going to willingly let them out. At least with absurdly high sentences (like 25 years,) you at least know you’ll be released eventually. Even if the parole board doesn’t agree, you’ll still get out. But when the parole board is your only hope, that means suicide is your only other form of escape.

[–] [email protected] 13 points 6 months ago

I had no idea these were a thing. That's brutal.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 6 months ago* (last edited 6 months ago) (1 children)

Am I just dumb or is this title gore?

I had to read the title several times, comments and article all just to put context to the title.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 6 months ago* (last edited 6 months ago)

Yeah, it's hard to understand. If they'd written sentenced to 23 months instead of jailed, it would be a lot clearer. As it is, it sounds like he was in jail for 23 months and then "held" somewhere else.