Men's Liberation
This community is first and foremost a feminist community for men and masc people, but it is also a place to talk about men’s issues with a particular focus on intersectionality.
Rules
Everybody is welcome, but this is primarily a space for men and masc people
Non-masculine perspectives are incredibly important in making sure that the lived experiences of others are present in discussions on masculinity, but please remember that this is a space to discuss issues pertaining to men and masc individuals. Be kind, open-minded, and take care that you aren't talking over men expressing their own lived experiences.
Be productive
Be proactive in forming a productive discussion. Constructive criticism of our community is fine, but if you mainly criticize feminism or other people's efforts to solve gender issues, your post/comment will be removed.
Keep the following guidelines in mind when posting:
- Build upon the OP
- Discuss concepts rather than semantics
- No low effort comments
- No personal attacks
Assume good faith
Do not call other submitters' personal experiences into question.
No bigotry
Slurs, hate speech, and negative stereotyping towards marginalized groups will not be tolerated.
No brigading
Do not participate if you have been linked to this discussion from elsewhere. Similarly, links to elsewhere on the threadiverse must promote constructive discussion of men’s issues.
Recommended Reading
- The Will To Change: Men, Masculinity, And Love by bell hooks
- Politics of Masculinities: Men in Movements by Michael Messner
Related Communities
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The term feminism does essentialize the advocating for the equal rights of women (this is good actually), but it is also important to note that while this is a feminist community, this community is not about feminism. This community is about men and their specific liberation from oppressive gender roles and stereotypes.
The reason I'm not a feminist is because while feminism says it advocates for equal rights for women, in actuality it's advocating for more power for women.
When women are unfairly discriminated against (which is most of the time), fighting for more power for women is equivalent in outcome to fighting for equal rights. But in those situations where men get the short end of the stick, feminism is supremely unconcerned.
Feminism is not concerned with equality. It is concerned with better outcomes for women. It's a subtle but important difference. And it means it's an ideology that as a man I can mostly support but cannot subscribe to. Feminism does not care that the vast majority of workplace deaths are men. Feminism does not care that boys are failing school at unprecedented rates. It's not their issue, and that's fine, but don't pretend feminism is for everyone. BLM is sympathetic to Indian rights movements but it is not their issue. LGBT+ groups are sympathetic to unions but it is not their issue.
My struggles as a man are not feminism's issue. And that's fine. But we shouldn't pretend otherwise. We need our own group, separate from feminism.
Feminism does not care that the vast majority of workplace deaths are men. Feminism does not care that boys are failing school at unprecedented rates.
...
My struggles as a man are not feminism’s issue.
I think you'd be surprised. The vast majority of those who actually cover these topics are feminists, doing academic feminism.
Academic feminism, much like any other "-ism", has little connection to real life and what everyday adherents of the "-ism" believe or do.
I don't factor academic feminism into my thinking at all, because it's so far removed from today's reality on the ground. Feminism is what the majority of feminists make it.
The majority of feminists are at least drawing from feminist works (even if the knowledge comes secondhand). When progress is made, it is made at the academic level.
I disagree. I think progress is largely made at the ballot box and on the airwaves. Academic feminists are not scientists in a lab discovering new things. They're also not leaders of the movement. They're just academics. Over time, some academic points do filter to the broader movement but it's a trickle compared to the action of everyday feminists.
Here's the way I think about:
The real objective is, or should be, equality in all things that are not explicitly biological in nature and equitable treatment even in those. Thus, none of us should be excluded from the halls of power or anywhere else based on our biology even as things like health care are tailored to our biology.
That would seem to argue against a place called "men's liberation." The reality, however, is that we have only nicely begun the journey. Both men and women have much baggage to discard by virtue of both historical and current cultural and legal norms.
Those cultural and legal norms have imposed different behaviours, thought patterns, and roles. Men and women have different sets of baggage to deal with, so it only makes sense to find our allies in our journeys among those who share a common burden.
I am a male. I have rarely been excluded from women's liberation groups when I try to learn and have occasionally found that my perspective was appreciated. I would hope that the same thing is happening here.
I hope that we are all working toward a more equitable and more egalitarian society, but we won't get there by ignoring the real differences between men and women that have been imposed by culture and law. We cannot fix what we do not acknowledge.
"If you are used to privilige, equality feels like a threat"
I could write a lot more on how and why, but this sums it up nicely.
Non feminist male communities tend to devolve into misogynistic places. What exactly is your problem with feminism, except the name?
You need to read some Bell Hooks brother
What would you prefer and why?
There's already a word, egalitarian.
This doesn’t specify you’re discussing issues around gender though.
Personally I am not bothered by the word feminism but in general I find this type of minute language critiquing to not be very useful. I care more for the meanings and intentions behind words than their etymology. Feminism is a word that is almost universally used to mean egalitarianism regarding gender, and it has a long history and deep literature in support of that idea. For those reasons, I don’t think there will be consensus around changing it but if there was I would go along with it. As I said, it doesn’t seem like a very important issue here.
Agree, it is a waste of energy to argue semantics.