Stop emissions. There's a lot of negative effects to society for doing that, but that's the only real answer at this point. It also isn't going to avoid decades of worsening conditions, but there isn't a solution for that. All we can really do is stop continuing the damage we're still doing, even after decades of knowing we were doing it.
this post was submitted on 20 Mar 2024
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It also isn't going to avoid decades of worsening conditions, but there isn't a solution for that.
Various geoengineering techniques are solutions for that. We should be studying those in greater detail.
Geoengineering will have its own issues that may make things worse in the long run, but the worst effect will be it leveraged as a reason to continue business as usual. That's why I simply said we have to stop emissions. If we can't do that, then there's only one direction we can go (and are going, faster each year).
But as you said, stopping emissions won't avoid decades of worsening conditions. I think actually stopping those decades of worsening conditions is more important than a hypothetical "moral hazard" concern.
Frankly, this argument always bothered me. When someone is sick you try to treat both the underlying cause and the symptoms. It would be morally bankrupt and downright ridiculous to say "let the patient suffer, it's the only way he'll learn." Especially if the symptoms themselves could be fatal. And especially when the people suffering aren't the ones who actually "need to learn." When millions of people are starving to death in third-world nations or drowning when their overloaded refugee ships are turned away from wealthy ports, will you look them in the eye and tell them it's necessary because otherwise oil company executives might not be as motivated to reduce emissions?
Frankly, this argument always bothered me.
Because you don't understand the argument...
Using your metaphor the thing you're proposing to "treat the symptoms" has side effects which worsen the disease thus causing more real damage and worsening symptoms.
The only reason you would willingly pursue that course of treatment is if a treatment for the initial disease was ongoing (in this metaphor it's not, ghg emissions continue to increase dramatically) or if a patient was on palliative/EoLC.
You aren't saving "millions of people from starving to death", you're gambling that it will hold a bit longer before tens-hundreds of millions of people starve to death, and the evidence that these "treat the symptoms" is minimal at best thus leading to both outcomes (millions soon, more later).
Using your metaphor the thing you're proposing to "treat the symptoms" has side effects which worsen the disease thus causing more real damage and worsening symptoms.
What side effects, specifically? Some approaches to geoengineering may have negative side effects, but others don't appear to. There's no guarantee that an approach without side effects won't be found.
You aren't saving "millions of people from starving to death"
Yes, you are. Climate change would cause famine, ameliorating the effects of climate change would prevent that famine.
This whole comment is exactly the kind of argument that I'm objecting to. You've got some sort of a priori conviction that "no, geoengineering must make the situation work somehow" and therefore it's not worth studying. If it's not studied how can you possibly know?
There's no guarantee that an approach without side effects won't be found.
As the saying goes, "don't let perfect stand in the way of good".
- It's worth pointing out that the IPCC no longer uses the term "geoengineering" or "climate engineering" for the exact reason that we may be talking past each other here. They are problematicly vague and can describe things with very different characteristics. Are you talking about CDR, CCS, CCU, SRM, other vague "offset the impacts of climate change" (IE ocean liming/fertilization, glacier stabilization, etc.), or all of the above?
Some approaches to geoengineering may have negative side effects, but others don't appear to.
Be specific. Which ones?
- You have misread my previous comment.
Climate change would cause famine, ameliorating the effects of climate change would prevent that famine.You have misread
This statement is correct, but you are bringing it up against the point being made about how taking a "treating the symptoms" of climate change might improve things a bit in the short term, but leads to worse long term outcomes.
- Nowhere did I say it's not worth studying.
You've got some sort of a priori conviction that "no, geoengineering must make the situation worse somehow" and therefore it's not worth studying. If it's not studied how can you possibly know?
I have stated that the current status of said studies do not have sufficient evidence to merit the claims you are making. If you think otherwise please provide some evidence/papers/links etc. otherwise we're in a Russell's teapot situation here.
Unless your definition of "studying" is the argument that because the situation is bad enough it's worth trying, at scale, whatever approach in the hope it improves things somewhat... Because that's the argument that many use in order to sell dangerous and unethical grifts which seem promising and 'harmless'. (I'm linking that article specifically because it's "neutral journalism" at it's worst and I'm curious at what you take away from it...)
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Stop emissions.
A simple sounding answer that is almost impossible to put into practice in a short period of time.
You can't simply go cold turkey.
Far too many people would suffer, and mostly the people who aren't the worst causes of the problem.
And even if any government tried, the effort would be delayed and watered down by decades of lawsuits and attacks from basically everyone.
Regulation.
The carbon tax, along or instead of cap-and-trade, was the conservative alternative to straight-up regulation. "We need a market based approach!" they said, "We need something that's responsive!" they said, "We need something that's cost-neutral!" they said. Regulation was too hard, too strict, too ornerous, too old-school for our modern, fast-moving, market-based world.
"Trust us!" the capitalists said.
And now it's too hard because even a weaksauce carbon tax is too much for their precious profit margins. There's money that someone else is making that is rightfully theirs! It was their idea and now they can't even.
So you know what? You don't like the carbon tax? The we go back to good old-fashioned, ball-busting regulation. Because it fucking works.
So, echoing my response to the other guy saying this, how well did that work for plastics? Everyone knows paper straws are worse and unnecessary, and it just makes them want to go back to the old way, microplastics be damned. It's easy to say "regulate", but when it's as complex a problem as the energy source for our whole technological civilisation there's not a clear way to actually write such a legislation.
The issue with the carbon tax isn't that it doesn't work, it's that it's unpopular.
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Yes, fine the shit out of them with penalties that will actually impact or potentially even destroy corporations who choose to continue destroying our planet instead of these tiny bullshit slap on the wrist fines that companies just laugh off
If a company exists at the expense of humanity's survival then it does not deserve to exist.
The difficult part is it's tough to actually measure pollution emitted by an entity accurately and fine accordingly.
You can guess how much CO2 output there is from a refinery, sure, and fine them for it, but they will just raise the prices of end products to compensate for it.
In the end gas goes up the same amount but the less affluent people dependant on it won't get rebates. They're money just goes to the corporations anyways in order to pay for the fines.
how much CO2 output there is from a refinery, sure, and fine them for it, but they will just raise the prices of end products to compensate for it.
If their polluting activities ultimately lead to fewer people buying their products because of that increased cost, maybe that's the financial incentive they need to clean up their act?
Though I don't hold my breath that big corporations are willing (or able) to think beyond next month's profit and instead look a year or 5 into the future sustainability of their enterprise (let alone their negative impacts on the society that they exist in)
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Seems that this idea can be done at the same time as we apply the economic bottom-up push.
corporations who choose to continue destroying our planet
Which ones are the good oil companies? Or do you think we don't need any oil companies?
It feels like this suggestion relies on there only being a few people that are contributing to the problem, when in reality it's pretty structural.
That's why we elected officials, to come up with ideas. Taxing food is not an idea, it's a cheap shot at the working class. Tax from the top down, beginning with luxury goods, private planes, expensive non essentials. But for fucks sake stop taxing food!!
Don't most Canadians receive a bigger rebate for the carbon tax than the tax ends up costing them?
Yes, but the government hasn't made that clear in short enough words for the average Conservative voter to understand.
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Yes. 8 out of 10, according to Trudeau. It might be more like 7.
The only mistake they made was not sending out the rebates on paper checks inside a pretty envelope covered in windmills. They would have called it "self-promotion" and "an unnecessary expense", and they would have been right, but apparently we're not good enough to be treated as intelligent adults who can see our own finances.
That's why we elected officials[:] to come up with ideas.
Nope. We elect officials to manage our shared resources in the way we say. We could get them to consult experts and do what they say, but half the time it's a climate-denying bunch of politicians masquerading under an affordability lie mask, and they don't consult for advice they would ignore anyway.
When we did consult experts, the best idea from economists and climate types with a chance of success was ... (drum roll) ... Carbon Tax.
Taxing food is not an idea[:] it's a cheap shot at the working class.
So that's what the "tax nothing and provide nothing" party wants you to believe. Their rich friends get hit a lot with taxes and it's getting hard to avoid them.
Remember that taxing the transport method doesn't tax the cargo except indirectly. The goal is to provide massive opportunities for a better transport option to grow because conveyance isn't firmly linked to cargo: there's options. Evolution takes time, and we're starting Very Late, but the proceeds from the tax is a fast-forward button.
If your politicians are demonizing the carbon tax, despite non-rich people getting far more back on average, find out why they're doing that. There's a rich guy behind it.
Tax from the top down, beginning with luxury goods, private planes, expensive non essentials.
Good ideas, all of them. Add in higher taxes for second homes, any rental income, or just make it any income above 300k/year or some number to firmly hit the rich bitches and not the 99.999% rest of us.
But for fucks sake stop taxing food!
Stop eating gasoline.
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Yes there's been a much better idea for a long time now that lots of smart people are pushing for. Don't tax the co2 emitted when it's burned. Tax is when it comes out of the ground. Put the price there and let it trickle down the supply lines.
Problem is, if we put a tax that represents the damage to our planet caused by CO2 on the carbon that comes out of the ground, all coal mining and oil extraction would cease nearly overnight, since it would no longer be profitable. Which says a lot.
I like this, I've never had anyone come out with an actual suggestion that is better than what's on the table. This could work.
It's usually just the opposition whining for political points with no plan, and that I can not stand.
It's not the ideas, we have the solutions, it's getting everyone aboard.
The problem with that is that Canada has international competitors that don't have an extra tax, and our oil is already expensive. Otherwise, I actually think this would work out about the same way. I suppose you could add tariffs to try and simulate it on American shale oil or whatever, but that would piss off trading partners and still be pretty complicated.
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'We suggest: not paying"
This is the best summary I could come up with:
But opposing the federal carbon tax is also a relatively easy thing to do — particularly when you're not responsible for explaining how Canada will do its part to reduce global greenhouse gas emissions.
Important actions at the provincial level in years past — British Columbia's adoption of a carbon tax in 2008, Quebec's move to a cap-and-trade system in 2013, the phaseout of coal-fired electricity generation in Ontario and Alberta — have helped to stabilize emissions in Canada.
But because climate policy is viewed largely as a federal issue in Canada, provincial politicians can point in Ottawa's direction whenever they want to assign blame or responsibility elsewhere.
But Poilievre has returned the party to its previous position of simply opposing the federal carbon tax — while also rejecting the government's clean fuel regulations.
The Conservative leader has said simply that he would subsidize clean energy and emissions-reducing technology, while making it easier for such projects to get regulatory approval.
The only thing really standing in the way of a fuller debate on climate policy in Canada is political convenience — opposition parties like to withhold their own proposals until an election has been called.
The original article contains 1,015 words, the summary contains 189 words. Saved 81%. I'm a bot and I'm open source!
Regulate. You know, we have done so for decades. Remember leaded gasoline? No credits involved. New rules instituted, companies adjust, victory.
It's so disingenuous to ask the question, when environmental problems and solutions predate the carbon tax idea by decades, or even centuries, depending how you define things.
That's easy to just say, but what would the regulation be? No more fossil fuels starting tomorrow? Civilisation grinds to a halt, or more likely people just ignore the law. Corporations have to be responsible? They interpret "responsible" as a $5 donation quarterly to panda conservation. You could go through every technology that uses fossil fuels and tighten up efficiencies, but that's slow to start with, and then it turns out it causes a big problem in some niche application. Think about plastic straws and disabled people. It's far better just to add a tax and let it work out in the wash.
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Reverse tax or massive credits for electric conversions.
They called it a rebate. It was thousands per car.
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