I don't think violence is the answer we really need to be getting everyone to vote! 2024 is going to be the most important election of our lives πΌ
this post was submitted on 03 Aug 2023
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Violence is unironically an important part of any discussion with governing powers. The powers that be use violence to maintain their power - this is not actually inherently bad, but it does mean that from time to time the governing powers must be reminded that peaceful acquiescence to their use of violence is conditional. If they do not believe it is, then they will not respect any agreement with the people - such is the nature of all power imbalance in negotiations with institutions.
Thanks for being smart so I don't have to be.
My two cents: A common saying is that the state has a monopoly on voilence, but I see it more of as a concept of temporary outsorcing, and once in a while a government needs to be reminded of this.
This is so general as to be incoherent and meaningless.
Conditional on what? You don't offer anything. Why aren't elections enough? Nothing offered on this point.
The theory, if it can be called that, is what? Dumb memes glorifying political murder serve to remind those in power that violence is delegated to them by the people?
Or is political murder itself the reminder? You think killing politicians and government employees is going to moderate government violence? Now that is funny.
Take a deep breath. Calm down. There's no conversation to be had when you're creating points for yourself to argue against.
lol every point is taken from your comment.
My guy, if you're interested in having a serious conversation, I'm game, but that precludes having arguments with yourself or weird one-line remarks.
Not your guy, pal. And I mean if that were true, you would actually respond to my points instead of taking this strange position where my direct response to you is somehow just me arguing with myself.
but ok:
You didn't specify a state, country or territory that your meme is addressing. Do all countries have these sad little metaphorical guillotines? Even democracies?
When and why should the killing start? Because when someone is this unspecific about killing people, I'll be honest, it's pretty repellent to me. Think about all the different images and ideas this meme conjures in the mind of your upvoters. How many do you think have their own personal kill list?
You didnβt specify a state, country or territory that your meme is addressing. Do all countries have these sad little metaphorical guillotines? Even democracies?
Yes, absolutely. Especially democracies. Institutions of force don't acquiesce to the will of the voters out of the kindness of their hearts, they do so because they understand that there is a very real threat of violence if they don't. As the saying goes, the three boxes are the soapbox, the ballot box, and the cartridge box. This has been understood on a basic level for as long as democracy has existed.
When and why should the killing start?
Ideally, not at all. But it becomes necessary the more calcified and unreactive to popular opinion a society's institutions of power become, and institutions of power tend to become insulated from popular opinion when they hold disproportionate power compared to the masses. The more disproportionate their power, the less they heed the voices of the people and the more nakedly they pursue their own interests.
Because when someone is this unspecific about killing people, Iβll be honest, itβs pretty repellent to me. Think about all the different images and ideas this meme conjures in the mind of your upvoters. How many do you think have their own personal kill list?
If you think someone is about to begin a revolution because they saw someone post a crying guillotine on a political meme forum, then there were much deeper problems afoot than the hungriest little guillotine.
Implicit in your argument is that the outcome of political violence is always (or at least often) a net positive for the public. Not really buying that.
As the saying goes, the three boxes are the soapbox, the ballot box, and the cartridge box. This has been understood on a basic level for as long as democracy has existed.
It's four boxes, you have (unironically?) omitted juries. And democracy existed long before 19th century US politics.
If you think someone is about to begin a revolution because they saw someone post a crying guillotine on a political meme forum, then there were much deeper problems afoot than the hungriest little guillotine.
Because you didn't address it, my point remains. I am not saying someone is going to start a revolutions. I'm saying that things like your meme contribute to an environment that normalizes violence as a solution to political problems. None of the nuance of what you said above is connoted in the OP, and as with most memes, the majority of people upvote and keep scrolling.
You don't have any control over what "good political violence" means to the people for whom it is normalized. All you can control is the decision not to post the meme about how beheadings are good.
Implicit in your argument is that the outcome of political violence is always (or at least often) a net positive for the public.
How so? The argument posits that political violence or the threat of it is necessary in all interactions with institutions of power that are not just rolling over and taking what is given, not that all exercises of political violence or threats thereof are good.
Itβs four boxes, you have (unironically?) omitted juries.
So I did, mea culpa.
Because you didnβt address it, my point remains. I am not saying someone is going to start a revolutions. Iβm saying that things like your meme contribute to an environment that normalizes violence as a solution to political problems. None of the nuance of what you said above is connoted in the OP, and as with most memes, the majority of people upvote and keep scrolling.
I have a question: if someone makes a movie about the French Revolution, and that movie is clearly meant to have parallels in its narrative with modern class structures and issues, would that be contributing to an environment that normalizes violence?
I can rephrase, maybe wasn't clear. The word "necessary" implies a confidence in some desired outcome, and certainly that such an outcome would not make things even worse.
Like if something like this happened in America, what happens next? The Constitution is already in tatters at that point, do we try to put it back together? And where is America on the world stage then? France had few friends after the revolution.
I have a question: if someone makes a movie about the French Revolution, and that movie is clearly meant to have parallels in its narrative with modern class structures and issues, would that be contributing to an environment that normalizes violence?
I would welcome such a movie because it would probably have far more of a textual/historical basis, point of view and coherent philosophy than "I'm so hungry π".
Actually seeing a depiction of the violence carried out against French nobles would provoke way more critical thinking in viewers than a cartoon guillotine.
Would this film also contend with la Terreur? By all accounts most of the blood spilled by revolutionaries was that of "suspected" counter revolutionary spies, near 30K people. Lot of spies! Almost an unbelievable number.
Yes, vote for the fascist or the liberal. Things will change this time, bro. I swear. Just one more election bro.
Yea vote or die ??? not sure what is confusing about that, we need them on our side or else we will be just like the CCP
Time for voting is over. You can't vote our way out of this. Unfortunately it is to late and definitely can't fix it under a two party system, especially when both parties are captured and serve the rich.
I also feel it is too late to come together and show the government, who is really in charge, because 46% of our country wants and likes the boot on their neck.
While both Amerucan political parties are deeply flawed and do not represent the needs of regular people, there are important differences between them. It is disingenuous to equate them.
Nah we definitely can vote our way out of it. It's just going to take way longer and we'd need to convince people who the real enemy is. But we'd need to do that with a violent revolution too. When a lot of people, who own a lot of guns are drinking the capitalist Kool aid, a revolution just ends up being poor people fighting other poor people. Then the elites win in the end anyways.
Don't get me wrong. I'm on board with the need to drastically change and if the guillotine is the way then cool but it's just not at the moment. Voting is the least effective form of civic engagement so it would take the longest and we're running out of time. If we can get leftists to run and win in lots of local government races then there is absolutely a path to change things from the ground up. Politicians, wealthy elite and corporations really really want you to think that you have no options. The options just involve hard work so a lot of people think that murdering the wealthy is the easy way out. I agree that it's a way but I'm skeptical that it's as easy or cut and dry as many leftists want us to think it is.
Mass violence is the ugliest and least reliable way of effecting change. But damn if a little Reign of Terror, as a treat, doesn't sound nice sometimes when I read the news.
Sounds like a personal problem. Try using a little more imagination.
Sounds like a personal problem. Try using a little more imagination.
... what?
Most of you upvoting this would need to go to Wikipedia before you could have a remotely intelligent conversation about revolutionary violence.
I have no problem saying that if I woke up in a country where political change was brought about by killing elected officials, I'd leave. Fuck that noise and fuck political murder.
You already live in a country where the domination of the rich is maintained by social violence.
Based on what? Exactly what violence is taking place that if it ended the rich would lose their "domination"?
Nearly every aspect of modern life is backed up by the law. Law is nothing more than codified coercion. As I noted elsewhere, this is not inherently bad - but every legal protection fundamentally springs from, and is enforced by, violence. This is one the main things discussed in sociology with regards to governments. It's very basic.
As those with outsized influence are the ones who, well, have the most influence on the laws, as a demographic or class, such laws are naturally made to benefit the influential. As I mentioned before, this is not inherently a bad thing - many laws benefit ordinary people as well. But the vast corpus of private property and contract law, beneficial though it may sometimes be, has the primary and highest purpose of protecting the influence (ie the wealth) of the powerful.
The use of these laws to protect their interests, even while others starve, go deep into medical debt, or otherwise end up physically or mentally destroyed in the process of participating within the legal structures created by these laws, is a form of violence. It's just a form of violence that people are willing to accept - some without even considering it, it would seem.
You should just say ahead of time that your beliefs are based on an interpretation of critical theory and loosening the actual definition of violence. It'll save a ton of effort for the people who don't want to bother with you.
That law is codified violence is not even close to exclusive to critical theory, unless you're redefining critical theory as "All of modern sociology, all government philosophy of antiquity, and the ideologies of the Enlightenment"
Unfortunately, with political bribery fully legalized, there really isn't another recourse that will effect the status quo. You can always count on the kind of people who seek power in the first place to be greedy and corruptable, and when the wealthy can just "donate" to their Pacs to mandate their will, no amount of shaming, protest, or honorable vibes can overcome that.
So either all the peasants who own almost nothing relative to the owners...
...can start GoFundMes in a hopeless attempt to out-bribe our elected officials, or we can revolt, that thing that's too unseemly for you to consider. And reminder, sanctioned "protest," with a permit from the bribed politicians, at a designated non-disruptive protest location, at designated protest times, isn't protest at all, it's as productive as masturbation.
Or third choice and the one we'll almost certainly choose: jack shit nothing as the circumstances for most continues to decline until societal collapse in a generation or two due to greed driven ecological collapse.
I do think you're a bit pessimistic here - great change is still possible through a combination of leverage and the iron law of institutions. Just as the implicit threat of violence caused the creation of the modern welfare state, and the destruction of explicitly racial laws during the Civil Rights movement, so too can this be defeated. All it takes is growing discontent and disorder, combined with the ambitious, to restructure a society, even radically so.
Of course, such is also a game of chicken, with each side daring the other to swerve first, and the best way to win a game of chicken is to prefer collision to swerving...