Sorry, but fuck that. I don't see why I'm supposed to pay for crimes my great-grandparents committed.
this post was submitted on 07 Dec 2023
10 points (100.0% liked)
World News
2 readers
2 users here now
News from around the world!
founded 1 year ago
Let's say your great-great grandfather stole bricks from a victim to build a factory that you now own and that provides a nice living. Because of that the victim was not able to build a factory and their descendants are poor.
Let's say this crime is very well documented.
Did you do the crime? No. Are you reaping the benefits of the crime? Yes.
Should you give that factory to the descendants? Should you be required to help the poor descendants? Would it be a nice gesture to help the poor descendants?
Nobody is asking for the factory. People are asking for a bit of help because it's clear that you are still reaping the benefits of a crime that was perpetrated by an ancestor and the victims descendants are still feeling the repercussions of that crime.
@ahornsirup thought experiment: should other people in other countries have to pay for crimes your great-grandparents commited?
This is never going to go through as legislation, though.
Should? Obviously not. But that doesn't change that these demands are coming way, way too late. The perpetrators are (mostly) dead. I had no more say in it than any of the people still feeling the repercussions of colonialism.
@ahornsirup definitely. In some cases the perpetrators continued to extract throughout their lives. (And beyond, in Haiti: the former slaves had to pay reparations to France for freeing themselves for generations).
But, reparations are not about punishment of perpetrators.
Reparations are normally about stopping the people who are currently having to pay for the past, from paying for it.
This is done by redistributing some of the profit from those who are currently profiting from the past.
That all sounds nice in theory, but in practice it's distinction without difference.
@ahornsirup how do you figure that?
We have reparations in New Zealand, it's not about punishment it's about fairness.
Because it isn't fair. No matter what the intent is, the reparations are taken from people who bear no responsibility for the crimes committed in the past by their ancestors. As a German this is looking like the Greek or Polish demands for WW2 reparations with a different coat of paint. Sorry, but it's just too late.
So you’d argue to keep those people in an unfair situation because it’s unfair to try to minimize the unfair conditions you’re benefiting from?
To the people that benefit from an unfair world, balancing the playing field somehow becomes just as unfair in their mind. A mindset that ensures the underlying problems in the world don’t get meaningfully addressed.
@ahornsirup thank you for explaining your position, I appreciate it. I think a substantial part of Europe ferl the same way you do.
If this is about fairness I still don't see why you think it's fair that others suffer because of the crimes of your ancestors while you benefit.
as a German
Interestingly, Germany is undertaking a reparations programme about the Herero and Nama whom it genocided at the beginning of the 20th century (but I say "about" because controversially, Germany is not involving either of those groups themselves).
Better late than never, finally someone making this proposal! Mostly all "western" European countries committed crimes against humanity and their current wealth is based on having robbed through the centuries. Belgium, Denmark, France, Germany, Italy, Netherlands, Norway, Portugal, Spain, Sweden and United Kingdom be ready for restitution.
You may think to yourself "but the west gives money to these people all the time". But first you need to see the mechanics, distribution and employment of said money.
If it's IMF, World Bank or any loan based system, chances are it's apart of modern colonization, whereby the west relies on corrupt officials to furnish them with cheap, raw resources and the plan is generally that the loan takers will most likely default. In various western nations, this is considered predatory on a ground level and is even illegal some places. But when it comes to national loans, then we see conditions that would be absolutely unacceptable by normal loan terms and standards. "The Paris Club" is basically a bazaar for access to resources, which usually leads to massive austerity measures. Massive "austerity measures" in these cases means tax cuts for the rich, whereas poor people's taxes go into paying down the loan, meaning that the ones who took the loan in bad faith get off scot-free, as well as the ones who gave the loans in bad faith.
Multinationals are also apart of this, as they become an independent arm of the same process. Oil companies are especially guilty here, especially when employed in places like Africa. All regulations, be they health, safety or anything labour rights gets tossed out the window in the flight over. Several multinationals have been accused of relying on slave labour, and we're talking both wage-slave labour and direct slavery. Oh sure, you could blame the locals, but at the end of the day these companies rely on desperation to furnish them with non-discerning labourers, and usually get it by way of corrupt conditions. It's basically taking advantage of a bad situation, exacerbated by the loan conditions as well.
For me charity culture is also a crock. It's basically window dressing for a bunch of ribbon cutting. If you combine the total tally of all well digging done around Africa, with all the money put in, the entire African continent could have had irrigation systems, sewage systems, easy access to internet and actual infrastructure, which is what was needed all along.
For me, giving reperations directly is out of the question though, at least for now. Personally I think my own countrymen need to take inventory with where all our money ends up, and that you can't blame anyone else but corrupt politicians. If we did, then all those who suffer under these conditions would also be implicit, and the circle argument continues, as it has for decades. This is not going to budge an inch, for various reasons.
"But why not give reperations directly?" Bruh, did you read anything I wrote up 'ere? That shits gonna get misappropriated, on either side, like real quick. Don't be naive enough to think that it won't happend, because suddenly you have a new sky scraper somewhere, or a African oligarch has some 50 new Rolls Royce's, or some European has suddenly captured entire markets, while western politicians have also probably found a way to game that money flow somehow.
It is therefore easier from a political perspective to instead demand that we cancel the loans. They were made in bad faith on both sides, allowing corrupt politicians leeway. Oh sure, it would create a hit to the western economy, as the tallying of bananas would lead to a bunch of money just "disappearing", but guess what? We deserve it. More to the point, our politicians deserve it, and even more to the point: impoverished nations subjugated under these loans deserve a much needed economic respite. This should be the snapback that tells the west "woa there, son. You do anything bad and all bets are off". It sets a precedent where corrupt officials in the west could have a brief end to their career as billions just suddenly disappear over night.
They key here is not reparations, but repercussions, because again, corruption thrives in poverty, and creating conditions whereby countries are poor by default is the real issue, because that alone draws corrupt multi-nationals and politicians into the money circle and will make common people hesitant to give any reperations at all, as they'll rightfully believe that money will be misappropriated. And then what happens? It could invariably be the same song and dance, just dressed up differently.
Maybe sometime in the future we can talk reperations, but for now... those loans should be cancelled.
Or maybe, just maybe, in a perfect world, we could cancel those loans and furnish these countries with UBI for some years until their economy and politics heal. Ideally, this would be great! But, realistically.. cancel those fucking loans. I don't care if some corrupt African oligarch walks away with the bag, western politicians (fucking liberals, be they classic or noe) played ball with people they knew were corrupt, because they too were trying to get the bag. It was part and parcel of the design. We need to go down that rabbit hole.
CANCEL THE FUCKING LOANS.
They paid the moral debt with interest when they forced Africa to stop enslaving their own people to sell them.
Anyone who doesn’t know this is unqualified to speak about it or is being dishonest.