this post was submitted on 27 Jul 2023
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Fuck Cars

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A place to discuss problems of car centric infrastructure or how it hurts us all. Let's explore the bad world of Cars!

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[–] [email protected] 53 points 1 year ago (2 children)

It really fucking sucks that the auto industry lobbied the US government so goddamn hard in the 30’s - 70’s and got so much of this country built on car centric infrastructure while also systemically dismantling countless forms of public transit nationwide too. Most major cities and metropolitan areas used to have a pretty comprehensive streetcar system, yet where are they now? That’s right, manufacturers like GM bought majority stakes in those companies and then had their infrastructure dismantled all in the name of “progress.”

[–] [email protected] 16 points 1 year ago (3 children)

As far as I'm aware, the only city in the western world that truly kept its pre-automobile streetcar network was Melbourne, Australia. A result is it today has the largest tram network of any city in the world.

It hurts my soul to imagine how basically every city in North America had similar networks, but they were almost completely annihilated, save for small fragments in a small handful of cities.

[–] [email protected] 7 points 1 year ago

Toronto, Canada has kept its streetcar network since they were horse drawn. Today the network is 83km long, or a third of Melbourne's.

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[–] [email protected] 43 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (4 children)

I did a bicycle+light rail for a year and it took me about 2x the time to get everywhere I needed to go, but I could do it in a car centric city. You can't expect rural folks to have access to public transportation though. Suburbs are a stretch too in some areas.

[–] [email protected] 17 points 1 year ago (6 children)

Why can't we expect rural areas to have some form of mass transit? Having at least a bus system that services a rural area absolutely should be the expectation.

[–] [email protected] 30 points 1 year ago (5 children)

Because a bus that serves a town of 500 people will come once an hour, at most. Also, many people can't walk far to/from the one bus stop. Busses do not solve a problem in small towns, because there is no traffic and plenty of parking.

[–] [email protected] 24 points 1 year ago

Switzerland has rail that serves small towns and it’s pretty frequent: https://youtu.be/muPcHs-E4qc

[–] [email protected] 10 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (13 children)

@[email protected], @[email protected], @[email protected]

It seems that you're all only thinking about servicing just the small town itself, and not a larger bus line that services multiple smaller towns to get them to a larger city area and back, or to each other.

The usefulness is not in traversing the rural town. It's to get the fuck out of one.

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[–] [email protected] 10 points 1 year ago (3 children)

Your town underinvested in transit because everyone has a car, and they sprawled the architecture because everyone has a car. People got by in rural areas with trains just fine before cars were invented

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[–] [email protected] 8 points 1 year ago

Having grown up in a rural area, here's what I think the solution would look like.

  1. streetcars within towns
  2. Roads dedicated to cars that pass next to towns, and moving the bulk of parking to a ramp just within the town limits
  3. "Frequent" (think once every hour) bus stops from town to town
  4. A train hub for the local area to desirable areas like cities
[–] [email protected] 5 points 1 year ago

Why can't people in a 500 person town walk to the bus station? How is there traffic in them?? WHO IS PLANNING THIS

[–] [email protected] 9 points 1 year ago

+1 to this. Buses might not be the best mode for most in rural areas, but they are an essential lifeline for those who can't or can't afford to drive.

[–] [email protected] 5 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (10 children)

Because at that point you're just running buses for individuals at best, but mostly running empty. You'd have to stop at every house.. It would create more emissions that it saves.

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[–] [email protected] 11 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Now I can only speak for the US, but most major cities have ring roads or some sort of bypass that would be perfect for a hub and spoke sort of setup alongside them. Maybe it's just the fact that the university I went to famously has a light rail system and the concept is just embedded in me, but I'd imagine the uptake of a park and ride approach with stations out in the burbs (certainly not all of them, but laid out so that you don't need to go more than a burb or two over to reach a station) would be high enough to be worth it. Putting in some shops at the stations like an airport foodcourt would help offset building costs and whatnot to a degree over time as well. Then you could tie the hubs into other major cities in the state and you've got yourself a compelling transit system, doubly so if those cities have subways.

[–] [email protected] 7 points 1 year ago (3 children)

A benefit of starting with a park-and-ride setup is, if you have good protected bike lanes and secure bike parking, you can encourage a lot of bike and ebike trips to the transit hubs. If every suburb isn't too far from a transit hub, that makes a compelling case for bikes and ebikes as first- and last-mile solutions for a lot of people. Maybe not everyone, and maybe not overnight, but definitely for a lot of people. And any improvement is still improvement.

[–] [email protected] 5 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I understand what it means, but "last mile" is a really funny term because walking a mile is apparently inconceivable to the average american

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[–] [email protected] 5 points 1 year ago

When I switched to riding my bike to work the commute was almost identical. However, I was riding in traffic and after my second close call with a car door I called it quits.

If we had dedicated bike lanes where I live I would 100% still be riding to work.

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[–] [email protected] 14 points 1 year ago

Yes, but context matters. Nobody is taking a train up the street to get groceries. And using a car (or a huge ass truck) for that is often overkill.

Bikes FTW!

[–] [email protected] 14 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I'm struggling with this average vs potential. If I stand on a 3.5m wide sidewalk on average I'm going to see 15,000 people pass me by? And there is no room for potential improvement as the sidewalks are completely full on average? And how are we figuring cars can potentially be improved by 33%? Are all cars 3/4ths full already?

I'm very pro public transit, I'm just unclear what is being shown in this chart.

[–] [email protected] 9 points 1 year ago (1 children)

They're showing capacity, i.e., a 3.5m sidewalk can move about 15k people per direction per hour. I'm guessing there's leeway for cars depending on intersection types/design, speed, etc., whereas there is much less variation in average speed for pedestrians.

[–] [email protected] 4 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Average should be a measured real world quantity. A max theoretical value should never be average unless it's literally always at the max... on average.

[–] [email protected] 4 points 1 year ago

The wording on the chart isn't the best, but I'm presuming they mean average capacity, not average ridership, because every city and every system will have its own factors that can impact the specific capacity of their transit modes. E.g., one system may have double-decker suburban rail vs another's single-decker, or one system may have articulated buses vs another's non-articulated. These differences would result in differing capacities, but the purpose of the chart is to show a ballpark number for what the typical capacity of a 3.5m corridor of each type would be, based on averaging system capacities in presumably many different cities.

[–] [email protected] 10 points 1 year ago (4 children)

Inefficient energy wise. Not timewise.

[–] [email protected] 8 points 1 year ago

This visualization is space efficiency.

Obviously cars have terrible energy efficiency. The most efficient vehicle is a bicycle, since exercise is good for you it's arguably negative energy usage.

As for time efficiency, you have to consider car dependent development as a package. Everything spreads out, so overall there may not be an improvement in time efficiency, especially when you factor in the longer travel time of people not in cars. You could even consider the time spent working to pay for the car, or the time lost from people killed by the car, and I doubt cars would come out particularly time efficient then.

[–] [email protected] 8 points 1 year ago

And usage of space. And money, at least if you include all the externalities.

[–] [email protected] 6 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

They're measuring how many people can pass through a fixed point in space in an hour, not how long it takes one person to get from point A to point B.

So not really time or energy, but quantity.

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[–] [email protected] 8 points 1 year ago (2 children)

I don't understand this visualisation. Perhaps I'm lacking context. Anybody willing to do ELI5... maybe ELI15? What quantity is being compared and what are potential passengers?

[–] [email protected] 7 points 1 year ago

The context is that they're showing one metric among many and are hoping you'll draw the conclusion they want: that cars are an inefficient way to travel. It'd be interesting to see distance and time metrics added. For example, while pedestrian capacity is pretty large, the distance travelled for any specific time period is short, so people aren't walking somewhere 100 miles away.

Similarly, door-to-door travel time can vary a lot. Suburban commuter rail around here is fast, but you need to drive to the station (because suburbs are designed for cars), wait for a train, commute on the train, then find your way to your actual destination from the station you get off the train at, so that might include walking or public transit.

Obviously, any one of the options can make the most sense in a given situation, but the infographic isn't trying to show that.

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[–] [email protected] 5 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Efficiency is not the objective. In fact, were all energy and materials used in making and powering cars from relatively renewable sources, it wouldn't be a problem. I am aware they're not. All else being equal, efficiency is a worthwhile goal. But the tradeoff for inefficiency here is the freedom to go where you want when you want.

There are places here in Europe, contrary to what some people in this community might claim, that simply cannot be accessed by train. Smaller villages and the like.

Access to a car is useful. Ownership might not be unless you live there. But cars have their place.

[–] [email protected] 6 points 1 year ago (1 children)

But cars have their place.

True. However with all the downsides of cars, they should be only the fallback if most other options don't work. As it is, in many places, they are the highest priority that everything is planned around.

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[–] [email protected] 5 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Unfortunately, I'm immunocompromised, so most of these options are too high risk.

[–] [email protected] 13 points 1 year ago (4 children)

There is always exceptions and in some areas, you have to have some cars. But removing most of the cars and replacing most of the 8 lanes of traffic with alternatives would be more than enough.

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