Having just bought a ten year old plugin hybrid, I feel like I have two engines to worry about now. They’ll let you buy an extended warranty for the ICE but it’s a big fat no for the HV battery. If the battery totally dies, which it will, it’s $6k+ to replace it. I feel like an EV has an 8-10 year lifespan because after that, you better have the cash on hand to replace the battery. I’d prefer a super efficient ICE car that can run for 500k+ miles with proper maintenance. Then again, I’m a cheap old bastard who misses those reliable beater Hondas and Toyotas.
this post was submitted on 29 Nov 2023
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What's so mind boggling stupid to me is that full evs are mechanically so much simpler.
Their reliability should be fantastic.
But no oems cheap out on things like contactors in the battery.
Batteries should also be treated as consumable. Easily replaceable, maybe even in parts.
Electric motors seem like they should last forever too.
But nope, instead we get skimped cars with too big batteries, and seemingly no money spent anywhere else.
Manufacturers need to remember that planned obselesence only works when you know what your doing, and right now they early don't.
They're still overbuilding the modern steering column right now. EVs haven't started hitting the junkyard yet.
How so? Is it because they're switching to electric vs hydraulic?
No, I'm referring to the historical accounts of Henry Ford sending out engineers to see what hadn't failed on the Model T once it started hitting junkyards all over the US in the early 1910s. The engineers came back and said that almost universally, regardless if the vehicle had been crashed or not, the steering column still worked in over 90% of junked Model T's. When Henry Ford found that out, he redesigned the steering column to use 75% of the materials previously used.
The point of planned obsolescence is that, much like organic systems like our bodies, almost every single system in the product is built to minimum tolerances, so once one system starts to fail, all the systems fail at the same time.
HF may have been a racist Nazi asshole, but he literally built planned obsolescence the same way that nature did. There's no point in wasting energy to build something that will outlive its other complementary components by several lifetimes.
I feel like I have two engines to worry about now.
You like.. Quite literally do. Hybrids with electric drive are basically electric cars with a small ICE strapped to it. There are literally two systems and either failing is a problem. I really don't like the hybrid model for this reason, but making affordable, reliable, and long lasting EVs is still basically in its "proof of concept" phase. None of these have really existed long enough to see if they withstand the test of time.
I feel like an EV has an 8-10 year lifespan because after that, you better have the cash on hand to replace the battery.
Entirely true. But we can hope battery tech gets cheaper. But I'm not convinced that's going to happen. Especially with how fast battery tech is moving, it's not entirely unreasonable to worry about whether the battery will even be available anywhere when it does die.
I’d prefer a super efficient ICE car that can run for 500k+ miles with proper maintenance. Then again, I’m a cheap old bastard who misses those reliable beater Hondas and Toyotas.
I think this is actually a really difficult question right now, and I don't think there's a "right" answer. I also have hung onto Hondas/Toyotas for 20 years at a time and I'm not convinced to do anything else. No one has proven a long term EV yet, so I'm not ready to bite.
On the other hand, charging should be cheaper than gas. And it likely will continue getting better, faster, and cheaper. Doing it at home, you should definitely make the gas money back, but the parts/battery stuff is still too unclear.
I don't think there's a right or wrong answer right now, but it does feel to me like buying an EV is signing up to be a guinea pig.
Diesel-electic trains have been a thing for like 80 years, Edison Motors is the only company I know of that's using that sort of system.
I feel like an EV has an 8-10 year lifespan because after that, you better have the cash on hand to replace the battery.
Entirely true. But we can hope battery tech gets cheaper. But I'm not convinced that's going to happen. Especially with how fast battery tech is moving, it's not entirely unreasonable to worry about whether the battery will even be available anywhere when it does die.
Prices for useful batteries have already come down massively, to the point where lithium batteries are now growing into former lead-battery niches, because while lithium batteries are still more expensive, they are smaller and a lot more reliable. A lot of the research on battery tech is focused on using cheaper materials and on using less material per kWh. Cheaper LFP batteries are already complementing NMC batteries, and cheaper-yet sodium-based batteries are essentially in the stage of on-road validation. Even semi-solid state batteries are not too far out.
Also, by no means are batteries all dead after 8 years. There's a bunch of Nissan Leafs and Tesla S's to prove you wrong on that. It really depends on whether the batteries were fast-charged a lot and how much the car was driven. Also, it's worth noting that the car industry basically defines a battery as totaled if it holds somewhere between 75-80% of its original charge. By which point it is in fact not useless.
We had the same problem when computers were first made available. So many problems, constant errors, data loss. It is why society discarded that concept entirely and never went away from pencil and paper. Who wants the hassle? Plus, computers are so expensive. Pens and pencils are everywhere!
This is the best summary I could come up with:
CR is known for buying cars for its own test fleet, but for its annual auto reliability survey, the organization cast a wider net.
Hybrids have 19 potential trouble areas—all the above minus the charging problem—and EVs have just 12, since they go without things like internal combustion engines, fueling systems, or transmissions.
And as our data has consistently shown, reliability-minded consumers would be best served by forgoing brand new vehicles in their first model year," said Jake Fisher, senior director of auto testing at CR.
Tesla, despite a legion of horror stories, finds itself very middle of the pack in terms of overall reliability, and in general it builds dependable EV powertrains—less so bodywork, paint/trim, and climate systems.
In general, the Asian OEMs dominate the upper end of the reliability chart, although Mini, Porsche, and BMW also made the top 10.
As noted, Tesla placed pretty solidly mid-pack, along with other domestic brands like Buick, Ram, Cadillac, Chevrolet, and Dodge.
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