this post was submitted on 14 Feb 2024
101 points (97.2% liked)
Linux
48144 readers
928 users here now
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Linux is a family of open source Unix-like operating systems based on the Linux kernel, an operating system kernel first released on September 17, 1991 by Linus Torvalds. Linux is typically packaged in a Linux distribution (or distro for short).
Distributions include the Linux kernel and supporting system software and libraries, many of which are provided by the GNU Project. Many Linux distributions use the word "Linux" in their name, but the Free Software Foundation uses the name GNU/Linux to emphasize the importance of GNU software, causing some controversy.
Rules
- Posts must be relevant to operating systems running the Linux kernel. GNU/Linux or otherwise.
- No misinformation
- No NSFW content
- No hate speech, bigotry, etc
Related Communities
Community icon by Alpár-Etele Méder, licensed under CC BY 3.0
founded 5 years ago
MODERATORS
you are viewing a single comment's thread
view the rest of the comments
view the rest of the comments
No, I fully understand it. But if you build the whole system where every package is isolated, none of the packages interfere with each other, and every package is tested across a wide array of architectures, you can just as safely put together your ideal OS setup and don't have to deal with being locked into very simple and bare system.
The right place for immutable OSes is if you're using it as a server for container workloads, where you will never customize the base system. Or if you never want to customize your system. Yes, you can customize the system image, but it breaks all the guarantees that the images gives you because the packages themselves are not isolated and by bumping a wrong dependency for a custom packages you can still break the whole system.
Partly yes, but just installing a package without running into conflicts does not yet guarantee a working system. You have to cater for the right configurations too, for example when you think about a corporate setting with all kinds of networking whoes (like shares, vpns and such). I think you could get this to work with Nix somehow, but you want to test these things beforehand, and if you do so using images then you have the thing to ship to machines in your hands already, there's no need to compose the OS and configurations over and over again for every machine.
Another aspect with non-atomic OS composition on the target is that you have to deal with the transient phase from one state to the next. In this phase all kinds of things could happen, for example an update of nvidia drivers would render cuda disfunctional until the next reboot, as the userspace and kernelspace parts do not fit together anymore. With something like any of the fedora atomic variants, transient phases with basically undefined behaviour do not exist, and the time the system is not guaranteed to be in working order gets reduced to just the reboot.
Nix is cool and definetely better than any traditional package manager. But it is not an ultimate solution, to be honest so far it seems to me like it is living in a nieche of enthusiasts that are smart enough to put up with its unique declaration language. And below that niche you have ordinary linux users that may just be happy with silverblue without any modifications, and above that niche you have corporate doing their own images in CI/CD, CoreOS and all that jazz.
Your summary of the language is spot on. I still hope that more distros take inspiration from the declarative config and try to move in the direction, or nix supports a better language in the future. I think that ultimately that's what the average linux user would want. The ability to still customize in a safe manner. Silverblue, and others, are and will remain a great option for the new or indifferent user.
On your point about the transient phase, nix actually does that by default already. It installs everything at a separate path and then flips over in one go. You can even pick the mode, either try to do a live switch as you describe, or on boot. I don't know if I see many benefits to images there.
I am at a second place now that uses NixOS in a corporate setting, and it is much easier than maintaining the CoreOS images, or similar. I've had some many broken builds of CoreOS images because something goes wrong between the custom packages and the base CoreOS images, I would rather just run an Ansible script at this point. Also, you end up using the exact same test suite for NixOS images as for your other images, so the same guarantees end up being met.