this post was submitted on 07 Feb 2024
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Dude, focus groups? 6 slightly different spider-mans are not boring as long as he stays white but change his race and that's the bland as shit part?
I havent watched a spiderman I didnt like? Well, maybe the 3rd movie of the Toby Maguire run. Red flags are just flags at the end of the day and can end up being wrong. I didnt say a race swap guaranteed a bland piece of entertainment, just that it can signal one. Also, Miles Morales isnt a race swap, he's an entirely new character, and I actually prefer him to Peter Parker
It can signal one just like all the other little changes they make when rehashing a character right? Those changes are just as big of red flags right? They get the same out cry right? Cause if they didn't, well that would seem like a red flag of it's own.
Bud, just because some people using it as a red flag are racist, doesnt mean ALL people who are... are. Theres no denying that racist people care more about this red flag than the others, which all arent the same degree of red flag I might add. I'm merely pointing out that theres non racist reasons to be wary of a race swap
Which doesn't seem like a very helpful point. We all have figured out it's a mixed bag. The more interesting question might be what's the mix? Just because a handful of them are using race swap as a lazy filter for what they presume to be bland media we gotta handle the rest with kid gloves just in case?
Thats what I mean, though. I cant really think of a race swap, that wasnt a fully new character, that added to a story. For me, its a good sign, so far, because if theres ever an era that could change that its right now, that its likely a soulless corporate move, that the piece of entertainment is probably going to waste my time. The mix currently isnt in favour of race swaps. That being said, if the ONLY problem I hear about the piece of media is a race swap, I'm likely still going to watch it. It usually just signals me to wait a bit, and then other more important info, like none of the characters being likable and Scooby Doo not even being IN the newest Scooby Doo, will quickly come out and let me know that it isnt worth watching
So you are one of the handful. The fine point that you are trying to make is lost when it follows up people saying that changing an established character's race is purely pandering. The idea that most readers distinguish the superhero mantle from the alter ego doesn't hold up. When they say established character they mean Spider-Man. You might not but again you are the tiny handful.
So if changing race is a lazy inconsequential element why is it an issue? Why not all the other lazy inconsequential changes?
Why is inclusivity the inevitable obvious outcome of focus groups?
I'd argue that there are more like me than you think, we're just hidden by how loud the racists are (And others who arent as stupid as me as to get painted like one to argue about a relatively minor point). I guess I should reiterate that race changing in itself isnt a problem, its moreso that in its current most often usecase its signals that bad writing will follow. I'm making great care to point out entirely new characters because THERE where its a moniker that a new character adopts, there is plenty of precedent that it results in a new and interesting spin. But race swaps without character changes havent done so and have usually been done to hide bland writing
I'm still not sold that race swapping is any real indicator of bad writing. I think there are fewer like you than there are those who are coming from a racist motivation, whether they realize it or not. You taking care to make the distinction of new characters as you define them, and it's a good take on what constitutes a new character, doesn't change what most people mean. If you're going to use such similar language to convey your take it's kind of on you to make the distinction clear whenever you bring it up.
I think we've both explained our points and theres not much further to say, but I do want to point out that Miles Morales is very clearly NOT Peter Parker, Its not a thin line I'm arguing on on that point. They are both Spider Man, but they are different characters. That being said, I think we've reached the point where we understand each other but disagree, so I dont have much further to say if you dont as well.
I dunno, I didn't get much that was tangible about how race swap was a sign of bad writing. While I agree that Miles and Peter are different a great many don't agree and insist that race swapping spider-man was lazy and pandering.
Its less so the concept, and moreso the consistent execution. Kind of like theoretically a live action version of anime wasnt impossible to do in a good way, but until recently, all attempts to do so in the past were hilariously bad. And the fact that you cant seperate the racist talking points from the non racist ones is why I see a race swap without just creating a new character as a red flag. Studios have noticed if the shoehorn a social issue in that they can hide their bad writing behind the racist and sexists who'll get angry just because a person of colour or a woman took the main role.
That kinda strikes me as backfilling a motive for the studios to fit a preferred view rather than being an actual insight. But supposing that's true it seems like it supports the point that all the others changes don't get that kind of response. The other changes aren't considered pointless or lazy or pandering but the ones that do trigger the bigots, those do fall into that category it seems.
1: Just because I bring up one thing thats a red flag for lazy writing does not mean that there exist no other red flags for lazy writing
And 2: I'm pretty sure I've already brought it up, but the difference between this example and the other ones you brought up is the track record. If we are talking about just changing the characters race, I cant think of a single piece of media that did so in a way that added anything to the story. Its a red flag because all the previous times it happened it was bad.
I really feel like I'm at the point where I'm repeating myself though so I appreciate that this conversation has mostly felt in good faith, and I wish you a good rest of your day. Thank you for your time.
I think examples of the times that a race swap was the only thing that changed would probably have helped. I agree that without that you are kind of repeating yourself.