this post was submitted on 21 Jul 2023
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Hi, I seem to be reposting this comment everywhere there is discussion of r/place on Kbin and now Lemmy. I just haven't really seen those points being made so I thought they were worth highlighting. Sorry for the spam, this is the last one I promise. I need to go to work.
After giving it some thought, I think you should indeed do that. For Lemmy AND Kbin and more.
tl;dr: Advertising the existence of kbin and lemmy to random Reddit users is exactly what you want to do if you want to go against Reddit, and r/place is an excellent way of 1) telling people who don't know about it that these platforms exist, and 2) showcasing the vitality and size of the communities on these platforms
The major objection is that going to r/place gives Reddit the engagement and numbers they want for the IPO, and I think that's a compelling point but I don't think it's as obvious as the people making that point seem to think. The idea of "don't go on Reddit to protest Reddit, that's just helping Reddit" has some "But you live in a society, curious" vibes to it; I think the question of whether to protest vs abstain and how to best protest is always going to depend on the details of what you're protesting or abstaining from.
In this case I think Kbin and Lemmy users should put their names on the r/place board according to the following reasoning:
The argument that you shouldn't go on r/places is essentially saying that the best protest against Reddit is people leaving Reddit, which I agree with
Like all protests however it's not that impactful if it's a few isolated people doing it, you need to find a way to have users do it en masse. Coordination is key.
Same thing for going on Kbin and Lemmy and others - these platforms become good if they have enough users to sustain vibrant communities, they rely on network effects.
r/place as an event is a showcase of a community's coordination. It both requires a community to be large and well-communicated and it gives a very practical, visible way of advertising that coordination to both rivals and random observers (there's a paper out there proposing that this is why music evolved btw, hmmm that's pretty cool)
what ultimately made me decide to post this is going on the thread for r/place's first day. Look at the conversations, this is exactly what they're doing: discussing the communities participating, commenting on what they draw and explicitly talking about what it means for those communities' size and coordination
These comments also included people asking "why fuck u/spez ?" and "the only reason I'm still on Reddit is that there aren't any alternatives"
This means there is a pool of normie users who aren't aware of the protest, but are following r/places, and the "fuck u/spez" movement is effective in bringing their attention to it
By the same token there are tons of users who aren't aware of existing potential Reddit alternatives (one of those comments got "Lemmy" as a recommendation in replies and said "interesting I'll check it out" - they legit hadn't heard about it).
In conclusion:
Advertising the existence of kbin and lemmy to random Reddit users is exactly what you want to do if you want to go against Reddit, and r/place is an excellent way of 1) telling people who don't know about it that these platforms exist, and 2) showcasing the vitality and size of the communities on these platforms.
Now in practice I don't know that these platforms actually have the size and coordination to showcase that on r/places and that's fine, clearly a huge percentage of people here believe that boycotting Reddit entirely is more effective or more convenient. But if the question is "which hurts Reddit more, promoting Lemmy/Kbin on r/places or avoiding r/places", I've come to believe the answer is the first.
EDIT: oh right another objection I saw was "but the admins will just erase it", and there again look at the comments on r/place. Clear streisand effect on the guillotine, if there's stuff for lemmy/kbin/squabble that's visible enough and admins erase it it still works fine from a comms perspective.
Anybody who gives the slightest fuck about finding an alternative is already aware of kbin/Lemmy. By trying to “advertise”, you’re only opening up the platform to brigading. Anybody who actually cares has already made the switch.
Oh, and on top of that, you’re giving Reddit additional traffic, which is exactly what they want right now. Just leave it alone!!
you exist in a filter for people who know about kbin/lemmy. I only ever heard about them because of hackernews, which is a strong filter.
So you had at least enough desire to read anti-Reddit news which lead you to the alternative? That just proves my point…
I had no idea lemmy existed until r/DnDmemes posted about it, and now I'm here. So for at least some of us advertising would help
It’s diminishing returns. Reddit benefits more from the traffic in this scenario than the Fediverse ever could in terms of user gain from this kind of advertisement.
How though? An investor would look at place. See how that traffic isn't normal and see the protest on it then put 2 and 2 together and realize it's reddit trying to look good. It's not a secret
There are definitely diminishing returns to increasing the discoverability of something (if we hate the word "advertise") once enough people know about it. What are your reasons for thinking we are now at this point of diminishing returns and not still in the expansion phase?
Like, if it were actually the case that everybody who had an interest in being on Lemmy or kbin knew about Lemmy and kbin and understood exactly how much it was in their interest to be there... The only conclusion I can come to is that Lemmy and kbin kind of suck, given the activity in the subs I'm interested in. Or are inherently niche products that intrinsically interest few people compared to a platform like Reddit. I can definitely see an argument that this is true of Mastodon given the graveyard of "here is my new home away from Twitter" accounts that haven't posted since 2022 (I don't think Mastodon sucks but I can definitely buy that it has features that made it an unsatisfactory replacement for Twitter for most people in 2022), but whether that argument is correct or not I don't think you can make the same one for kbin or Lemmy at this point in time.
That's just empirically not true and it's not how people and internet communities work. But I guess a more important question is, are you saying this because you believe it to be true or because you are happy with the size Kbin and Lemmy currently are and would prefer not to have a mass migration from Reddit that would change the vibes ? Because that's absolutely a valid concern. If that's not where you're coming from and you really do just think that sentence is true, at what point in time would you say we reached the point where everyone who needs to be aware of kbin/Lemmy became aware of kbin/Lemmy?
You WISH kbin or Lemmy were big and well-known enough to be worth brigading. Or maybe you don't, which would be valid as I said above and is a different conversation. And it's possible that by "brigading" you mean "an influx of newbies who ruin the vibe", in which case I agree that this is a possible effect of what I suggest. In fact it's the desired effect. However if this does in fact result in a mass of people going onto the platform with the intention of ruining conversations who would not have gone on it instead, that would suck but I'm not sure it couldn't also be leveraged as a streisand effect. Kind of like how for a nobody like Rocky Balboa just being in the ring with Apollo Creed was a win.
Yes, giving Reddit additional traffic sucks and is what they want. If there were a way of participating in r/places without doing so I'd recommend that as a no-brainer. However it doesn't just give Reddit additional traffic and "what Reddit wants" isn't necessarily what's actually best for Reddit. I made an argument for why I think it would also cause a certain amount of migration from Reddit and we can get more into it once I better understand whether that's something you want to avoid or not. The question then becomes what the net effect will be, and I don't think that's easy for anyone to know, including Reddit. But numbers-wise, given the number of people in these threads compared to the audience of r/places and the percentage of that audience who would be nudged towards checking out/contributing more to kbin or lemmy from seeing them on r/places, I really feel the net effect is more likely to be on our side.
I'd be on board with this, but as you say it's a show of a community's coordination. Are there any lemmy communities coordinating anything? I couldn't see any in a brief search, but I very well might have missed something.
I don't think there currently are but I haven't searched either. I will say there were two separate "how about we do this" on kbin.social/m/redditMigration (where I first posted this comment), and given most replies seems to agree on shunning r/place I'd guess that nobody has started anything at this time. This comment isn't me volunteering to do it either, I wouldn't even know how to start, I just decided I disagreed with people's arguments and wanted to throw my thoughts out there. I might participate if something did get coordinated though; I don't have the app but when I was checking out r/place on my browser I seemed to hit a page where it looked like I could participate. Dunno if they changed things or if I misunderstood.
Anyway ISTM lemmy.world/c/reddit (is this where this is?) and kbin.social/m/redditMigration would be the logical places for such coordination if it were to happen. They're the places I've seen people talk about it.