this post was submitted on 25 Jan 2024
156 points (100.0% liked)
chapotraphouse
13198 readers
375 users here now
Banned? DM Wmill to appeal.
No anti-nautilism posts. See: Eco-fascism Primer
Vaush posts go in the_dunk_tank
founded 3 years ago
MODERATORS
you are viewing a single comment's thread
view the rest of the comments
view the rest of the comments
This is so upsetting if you know Gaza’s history of the past, say 20 yrs. Even more so when you bring it up to your friend who’s Jewish and you hear them repeat the propaganda lines of “but Israel must have the right to defend itself agains hAmAs”. So you ask “how many deaths will it be enough?”. Apparently we’re past 25k deaths with no stop in sight so who knows amarite. This is just heartbreaking.
Fixed it for you, please do better in the future
No, I've experienced, especially early in the conflict, having Jewish friends and loved ones who'd waffle. They're not Zionists in an explicit way, but I think we can understand how much Zionism affects Jewish life for most Jewish folks, and also understand that doesn't mean they were necessarily implicit especially early in this modern stage of the conflict.
Edit: it still should be Zionist, but asking them to do better when sharing a pretty normal anecdote is a bit overboard perhaps
First off, I saw this after your edit and I think it’s great how much thought you put into it.
Western Jews and Christians usually grow up in absolute Zionist saturation so even early into the process of their realization they still have a lot of conscious and subconscious barriers to taking that final mental leap. If this is their first real confrontation with the reality, it can take time to break through them. Hopefully by now they’ve entered the Norm Finkelstein crocodile tears phase.
Edit: bonus link for context and anyone who hasn’t seen it https://youtu.be/FtpgGxeCGpM?si=0M4GV0YsNjdvImcs
Thanks comrade, I really appreciate it, I think it helps to be mindful and nuanced when experiencing real things that shittier people would just take as proof to be reactionary. But yeah, same progression with a lot of my friends to becoming like Finkelstein. It's hard to find any synagogues in my area that haven't put up those awful HOSTAGE posters.
I totally feel that and I hope you are finding fulfilling outlets while the vast majority of Jewish institutions drop the ball in the most disheartening of ways. Not to reveal too much about myself, but I am struggling with the same. If you are looking for some re-grounding in real Jewishness devoid of Zionism, you might want to check out Rabbi Yaakov Shapiro and his podcast if you haven't already (and share it with your friends who are going through their awakening). While he is solidly a lib, so take any politics of his not related to Zionism with a spoon of salt and/or a big waive of your hand (he doesn't really engage in political analysis outside of Zionism, it's just off the cuff stuff he says about capitalism and communism), he's sort of a virtual schul for understanding what Judaism and Jews are and what Zionism is (the opposite of Judaism - a radical, Evangelical strain of anti-semitism).
https://www.committinghighreason.com
Or you can read the phonebook-length book he wrote on the subject (I have not read this book yet and sorry for the amazon link - it's his own link to the book) https://www.amazon.com/Empty-Wagon-Zionisms-Journey-Identity-ebook/dp/B08CVSBZF2/ref=tmm_kin_swatch_0?_encoding=UTF8&qid=1610490743&sr=8-1
I found a YouTube link in your comment. Here are links to the same video on alternative frontends that protect your privacy: