this post was submitted on 18 Jul 2023
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I find vegans tend to have less empathy for their fellow man than we meat-eaters have for animals. It comes across as smug (and let's be honest, it's less insulting to call them smug).
You do realise that meat-eaters eat animals that were killed for them to be eaten? Please explain to me how this is more empathetic than posting a meme that triggered some meat-eaters.
Yup. Animals that lived lives in the first place because they were going to be eaten. Why should anyone have an ethical problem with that? But honestly, I don't think it's just "were killed for them to be eaten" to you. I live in a deer population control zone. Hunters have a critical task of preventing deer overpopulation from devastating the area. Got any problems with the venison steak I had last week from deer that HAD to be killed?
More empathetic? Because I'm not an anti-natalist. I know those animals would not have been born if not farmed. This is not a vacuum choice between "cows die" and "cows live". It never was, and it never will be. I know that most of them live better lives and die easier than their non-domesticated counterparts. Ever watch a cat play with a mouse, slowly torturing it to death? My local farm (plants) have animals that do exactly that every day with the goal of killing off pest animals so they won't destroy the harvest (a single pest animal like a squirrel can destroy 40 or 50 tomatoes in an hour).
Let's go another way. Statistically, odds are pretty good that my death will be 100x worse than how a farm animal dies. So no, me being ok that death exists in our world is NOT a lack of empathy. You don't get to make up my morals for me. The way I see it, giving farm animals a peaceful life is the height of empathy... so I look at you (your words) "triggering some meat-eaters" and note that statistically many of the people you go out of your way to "trigger" are going to end up dying long and painful battles with cancer. My view of empathy? Give them just a LITTLE bit more bloody peace while they're alive.
Here's my empathy. I fight for animal right laws. I strongly supported the free range chicken law that just passed in my state. I reject unethical and inhumane ways of treating and killing animals. But I'm not uneducated. I know how farming works. I know how the delicate relationship between agriculture and horticulture, while not perfect, leads to less death and less environmental impact than EITHER side of those alone.
Vegans are letting some crayola-colored dream be the enemy of good. And it's nothing more than flat-earther, tinfoil, antivax gibberish to me. And I don't care as long as they leave people alone.
That is the most insane sentence I've read. Vegans aren't slaughtering and eating you. What empathy do you have for animals you choose to exploit and kill for taste preference? Vegans want people to stop doing a bad thing, that doesn't mean we don't care about those people, but it does usually mean that we have to argue with them.
Do you actually think you'll change anyone's mind by calling their well-conceived ethical frameworks "insane"? THIS is why you get the reputation of being smug. My life's knowledge, my grasp of philosophy, it's all worthless shit to you because I am morally convinced that it's acceptable to kill and eat animals. It doesn't matter why I'm convinced that (and I've learned the hard way it's not worth anyone's time to discuss the reasoning or the why's). I am beneith you.
Calling vegans "smug" is nicer than calling them dehumanizing and ignorant.
As I said in another comment, proselytizing zealous vegans like to strawman non-vegans as all sitting there with a piece of bloody steak on a fork saying "I know some poor cute fluffy animal died a painful death for this but I LOVE the taste of murder". That's not us. If you can't see that, perhaps the first step in your recovery is to actually start to.
As do I, and I have taken a lot of abuse from vegans over the years standing up to those bad things.
And more... That is Word. For. Word. what that guy on the subway says about my gay friends divorcing each other. Word. For. Bloody. Word.
I didnt call your ethical framework insane, I'm talking about your statement saying you have more empathy for animals than vegans have for you, which is beyond ridiculous to say. You literally strawmanned my argument, I didn't appeal to cuteness or scary words. It's a logical question that you just didnt answer. Taking 'abuse' from vegans... maybe we are just convinced its morally okay, or does being a victim not feel good to you? As for the last thing you said, I have literally no idea what you are talking about.
Have you ever heard of the personal incredulity fallacy?
Did I? What exactly do you think my ethical framework is if it's not either ignorance or lack of empathy... when you directly accused me of having less empathy for animals?
Where do you ever ask me a question that I didn't answer?
Rephrase please, so I don't get you even more on the defensive by answering the wrong question. Because this one came across as a softball one that you would not like the answer to.
I have sat through a "discussion" where several of my gay friends were told "we want people to stop doing a bad thing, that doesn’t mean we don’t care about those people". I have a friend who was kicked out of his home at 15 to almost that exact phrasing. Preachy Vegans come across EXACTLY like that to everyone else in the world. When I look a preachy vegan in the eyes, I see that bigoted Catholic dad who kicks his kid to the curb.
Do you have kids? What would you do if one of them came out non-vegan to you? What if they decided their calling was ranching? I've got a cousin who got a degree in dairy farming and he LOVES it.
No I heard your sentence and called it stupid and I still can't believe you are going with it because it is laughable. Go on, explain how you are nicer to animals more than vegans are to you. You are still alive so we haven't eaten you yet... Do you kill and eat people you care about?
You said you are taking 'abuse' from vegans in the same comment you said you see nothing wrong with killing and eating someone. I can't take your victim point seriously when you refuse to acknowledge the feelings of your victims.
As your your gay friends thing, its a false equivalence despite what the words are. Gay people don't have victims. Nonvegans do. I'm defining "bad thing" as an action that harms others. Being gay is also not a choice and is nothing like being nonvegan. You aren't a fucking minority for being nonvegan. What a dumbass insulting argument.
Wait. I thought you said you weren't smug?
Already did. And I didn't say "vegans are to me" I said "vegans are to non-vegans".
Is that the only moral in your world? DO what thou wilt as long as you don't eat animals? My usual critique is that vegans have this over-simplified 2d understanding of ethics and the environment. So it kinda fits.
Is animal personhood a requirement for someone to be said to have empathy towards animals? Or are you just getting a little bit unhinged with cannibalism talk? You are allowed to walk away you know.
As far as I can tell, you don't seem to be taking anything non-vegan seriously. You've kinda proven the entire discussion and we can both move on.
Funny thing, that's what they'd say. Bodies are temples, Jesus' consent, yada yada yada.
Bit of a simplified definition, if I do say myself. As a utilitarian, I'd like to point out the spiderweb in any ethical decision as everything can harm others in some way.
Your only options are that I turn vegan or I'm inferior to you. You REALLY don't like educated interlocutors, do you?
say something very stupid
call any argument against it smug
We are both being smug right now because this argument is stupid.
You did a poor job explaining then. You made up that statement. I'm asking how you can be empathetic to someone you murder and eat. Why would that be my only moral issue?
Oh you didn't like when I referred to animals as 'someone'. Yeah so much empathy.
Never called you inferior, captain strawman. Stop making shit up. And your rebuttal to the religious thing didn't make any sense. How was that at all equivalent, or have to do with what I said?
Gay people don't make a choice, you do. And to relate them to your choice to harm others is insulting to their struggle. So gfy with this point