this post was submitted on 20 Dec 2023
238 points (97.6% liked)
Technology
59232 readers
2980 users here now
This is a most excellent place for technology news and articles.
Our Rules
- Follow the lemmy.world rules.
- Only tech related content.
- Be excellent to each another!
- Mod approved content bots can post up to 10 articles per day.
- Threads asking for personal tech support may be deleted.
- Politics threads may be removed.
- No memes allowed as posts, OK to post as comments.
- Only approved bots from the list below, to ask if your bot can be added please contact us.
- Check for duplicates before posting, duplicates may be removed
Approved Bots
founded 1 year ago
MODERATORS
you are viewing a single comment's thread
view the rest of the comments
view the rest of the comments
I've seen this sentiment around, but where else are you supposed to ride eScoooters and bicycles? Of course ideally they belong in the bike lane, but most places don't have bike lines, so the alternatives are sidewalks or in the road with cars.
If we're gonna get people out of cars, we need to recognize that walking+transit doesn't work for everyone a lot of people and that a bicycle/ eScooter is the solution (look at Amsterdam/ Copenhagen how well bicycles work) , but bike lanes don't get built overnight, especially when few people cycle, if their banished from the safe sidewalk and only allowed to cycle in the dangerous road.
(I've lumped bikes and eScooters together since they both solve the same problem of rapid personal transport, both having speeds of 20-30 kph which is significantly more than pedestrians but less than cars)
On the road.
I agree that some people will get scared of being on the road with cars, but that's where they belong if there are no bike lanes. The catch-22 is that you can't get enough traffic to justify bike lanes until you have bike lanes. It takes someone to make the gamble that "if you build it, they will come". And, even then, drivers are going to be extremely dangerous. In the Netherlands, drivers largely aren't, but in North America there's a combination of drivers not expecting bikes, so making honest mistakes that get bikers killed, and drivers being evil assholes who don't think bikes belong near them and will drive dangerously and kill people.
Netherlands has reached a state where bikers feel safe because everyone bikes and it's safe. That means drivers always expect bikes. That makes biking safer, so more people are willing to bike.
Still, fundamentally, until there are bike lanes, bikes and scooters need to stay off sidewalks. Scooters and people who aren't experienced cyclists probably shouldn't ride on major roads either. Drivers are just too dangerous, and the speed difference between the two is too big. But, on smaller roads where the top speeds are about 30 km/h, the bikes and scooters will be going similar speeds to the cars. That's not that fast for a vehicle, but it's way too fast for the sidewalk.
Maybe it's a different culture, or matter of car and people density, but in my country (Norway) most people cycle on the sidewalk. Including kids of course, from the age of 10 they can cycle to school instead of having to walk.
Many footpaths here are also officially designated "cycling and walking paths". Generally the only cyclists you see in the road are sports cyclists in racing bicycles and tight skin suits.
The thinking here is that cyclists and pedestrians are both "soft traffic participants" so they share a space, while "hard traffic participants" like cars, trucks and motorcycles are kept separate.
Pedestrians do have right of way over cyclists. As the heavier faster party, cyclists have the responsibility to avoid conflict, by giving right of way, and slowing down and/or chiming their bell to signal their presence before passing pedestrians.
Personally, if I was told that tomorrow I'm only allowed to cycle on the road, I would get rid of my bike. If I'm gonna be on the road full of lorries busses and SUVs going 60kph, I'd rather just be in my car. It's just not worth the risk and constant peril. This is in a more suburban and industrial/commercial setting, where the sidewalks have gaps to buildings, and pedestrians are far apart.
I can however see how in a dense, crowded downtown area where the cars mostly drive slow and the sidewalks are dense with people, that cycling in the road makes more sense.
Thinking about it the only roads with 30kph limit and a sidewalk are in the very center of the city. All other places with 30kph are basically neighbourhoods etc where there are no sidewalks and everybody shares the road. Roads here with a dedicated sidewalk also have higher speed limits that what a casual cyclist can achieve
Road or cycleway. Pedestrian only sidewalk is not place for bicycles or scooters due to their greater speed.
There is combined cycleway and walkways, but there the point is those are wider than mere sidewalks, so there is room for cycles and scooters to safely overtake pedestrians.