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this post was submitted on 15 Dec 2023
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Having a conversation about immigration isn’t a bad thing. Going in to that conversation looking to shove your view points down the others side throat IS a bad thing.
The reality is that we need immigrants to fill a ton of holes in our workforce but we also need to fix the system to allow legal immigration to be an easier process and to try to stem the tide of illegal immigration.
I don’t have the answers, but I know the problems exist and there are much smarter people who could help get ideas moving if the ideologues would get out of the way.
Yeah, most people against illegal immigration have no idea how arduous and expensive the process actually is. It's not as simple as going to the border and saying, "One greencard please."
I'm against illegal immigration, but the solution I'd like to see is a more streamlined process so people wouldn't need to pay coyotes to smuggle them across with no guarantee they'd even survive the trip.
If they want to come be productive members of society, why stop them?
Because America, by large, has been built upon immigrants coming over and shutting the door behind them so others can’t get their success.
We’ve done it as English colonists, we’ve done it during the Industrial Revolution, we’ve done it in the early 1900s, and we’re doing it now. It’s sadly a trend that we, as a country, never grew out of.
One point I’ve brought up successfully with a Trumpy acquaintance has been how big Agri business relies so much on illegal workers (throw child labor in there too when they talk about pedos). I ask him why if politicians complain so much, why didn’t they really do anything to stop the demand for undocumented workers when they had the power? Then ask him if he likes cheap fruit and chicken, and how Tyson and Dole would have to double or triple the prices of it all if they paid a fair wage.
Unfortunately, He usually shuts up and says Hunter probably cashed in on it too or some other bullshit, but I can see some gears grinding over when it hits him at first.
It's a ridiculous process to get a work visa even for skilled and educated people with money. I had a gf who had a PhD in material science with a wealthy family. She was working at a National Lab and was worried if she didn't get a permanent position there, she'd be scrambling to find a job that would give her an extension or she'd have to move back to Europe.
Apparently it used to be easier to get seasonal work permits for Mexicans wishing to work in the US, and it was common for workers to go back to Mexico after the work season. Most did not want to permanently move to the US, but preferred to return to stay with their families. Those visas were curtailed under Reagan, so they became much harder to obtain. Crossing back to Mexico became harder, so now more just cross the border and then never return. If we still had a reasonable system in place to allow temporary workers in, I’m sure we’d see less illegal crossings.
@phoneymouse @[email protected] Grew up on a small family farm in San Joaquin Valley. Annually we hired the same "braceros" who migrated with the crops for harvest. Why did Reagan stop this?
Because Republicans hate anyone who isn't a rich white man.
@EatYouWell I'm thinking it might have to do with Reagan's deeply-seated animosity toward the UFW/Chavez business while he was governor?
Reagan is the reason the country is currently fucked, so probably.
We need immigrants because they make the nation better, not to "fix holes" in the workforce. They're people. Let's talk about them like they deserve humanity.
The person you replied to is discussing the pragmatic reality that immigrants are necessary for our economy. It's not dehumanizing to point out that from an economic standpoint they're necessary. It seems like you're just looking for offense.
Thank you.
I was speaking simply from a pragmatic, economic focus because the people opposed to immigration don’t care about the human side. Of course they’re people and we should care about them as people, but the conversation is helped along if you understand what people on the other side of the convo find important.
Japan is a key example of what happens when you reject immigration. Their work force is shrinking at a rate that will have significant negative impacts on their economy. Advanced society’s have fewer children, so immigration is needed to keep the work force growing. If all you care about is capitalism and economic growth, you should care about ensuring we allow immigration to continue, legally, at a high rate.
I'm not offended in the slightest. I'm white and born in the US. I just happen to think immigration raises the tide for everyone. Usually when people talk about filling gaps in our economy, they don't mean doctors and lawyers.
Seems like you got real defensive of someone else when I simply raised the point that as a nation of immigrants, the reason to continue allowing immigration is continuing that tradition and improving our country by welcoming everyone.
Immigration does benefit everyone. But the immigration usually discussed are asylum claims and "illegal" entries across the southern border, because ignorant people find it scary. Those folks typically aren't doctors and lawyers, they're typically poor with few options, and can be/are usually hugely beneficial for the US. People with resources, like doctors or lawyers typically can enter under different visa classifications.
Not defensive at all, simply pointing out that there's nothing wrong with speaking realistically about immigration and economics. There's plenty of dehumanizing language used with regard to immigration but I don't think the commenter used or intended that.
Asylum seekers come from all walks of life. Look at the people fleeing Khmer Rouge in Cambodia. They were welcomed to the US with open arms, even when they came here illegally. Look at past Central American migrant waves like in the 70s and 80s. Who do the US demonize? Poor central americans fleeing the same violence that rich ones were fleeing. Who received amnesty from Reagan in the 80s? The rich ones.
Violence sends everyone running for asylum, we simply choose which ones to call "illegal" and which ones to call model immigrants.
I don't take anything anybody is here as a defense of a broken immigration system, or as offensive to people seeking asylum, a better life, escaping abusive home life, or whatever reason they decided to up and leave everything they've ever known. I'm just highlighting the other aspects of the topic, because even those of us that don't intend to talk down about immigrants tend to use the language that's been played out for the past 50 years or so.
bostonbanarama got defensive because you were attacking
If
is attacking, then I don't know what to say to you.
You attacked bostonbanarama’s character by choosing to interpret what they wrote in the worst way possible. You accused them of dehumanizing, which is a social crime. A person “convicted” of a social crime can suffer serious consequences.
When you cast yourself as the lone defender of good, you accuse everyone around you of being bad. An accusation is an attack on a person’s character.
lmfao You are so far off in the deep end that I fear there's no lifeline to help you. I hope some day you're able to not be so fragile, but I doubt it.
My instinct is to simply walk away. I forced myself over it by reminding myself you’re human and deserve help even if you’re a jackass. That’s what motivated me to write that, not my being hurt.
If you don’t find any value in what I wrote, that’s your call.
Bye.
Man I've said this over and over again. If illegal immigration is such a problem take a damn look at your system. My dad just thinks I'm some crazy liberal though for suggesting it. I live in a border state and I've been hearing the same empty talking points since I was a child.
I’m not following what you’re saying.
He’s saying it’s obvious we need to reform legal immigration.
So, when TheCrispyDud mentions:
I assume that the mention of the "system" is a reference to how many industries in the United States would suffer, falter, or outright collapse without undocumented workers laboring for less money or at higher productivity rates than we get from legal residents at minimum wage.
We could outright stop all instances of undocumented workers functioning in this country's workforce if we simply properly enforced all of the existing penalties. Every time this has been seriously approached as a solution in small doses, it's eventually been rolled back because of the economic impact.
Fruit, Retail Trade, Dairy, Construction, heck, most of our Agriculture, etc, are estimated to be somewhere between 10% and 20% staffed by undocumented workers, typically performing the functions they can't get citizens to work in for bottom level wages. Depending on the area of the country you're in, the numbers are sometimes higher than that. California's picking, Wisconsin's Dairy, Midwest Residential Roofing, etc.
If you have to prove you're legally allowed to work for every job, there are no jobs for undocumented immigrants. Problem (the one that conservatives complain about anyway) "solved".
It just creates a slough of NEW problems that we don't have solutions for in our current system.
One ostensibly feasible solution should be to ease the path to immigration or work visas for people who are willing to do the jobs that American Citizens don't seem to want.
If you don’t feel qualified to fix these problems yourself, how can you distinguish the ideologues from the experts?
That's awful logic- what you're saying is if you don't have a solution how can you point out any issues with the situation which makes no sense You don't have to have a solution to point out an issue that exists
I don't need to have a solution to Israel Palestine to be able to tell that bombing a shit ton for innocent people is fucked up and morally abhorrent
He says it’s "near and dear" to him which is definitely bullshit. What should be near and dear to him are actual issues to his constituents. Things like, wage gaps, infrastructure, opioid crisis, affordable homes and health care.
I’ll agree with him on one thing; he’s not progressive.
You’ve seen the contents of his office mailbox? Is it not possible that he is reacting to his constituents concerns?