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this post was submitted on 01 Dec 2023
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You're kind of an a*hole for doing the latter. But I get it. Middle lane hoggers are amongst the worst. And I have no good solution to offer.
Honestly the best solution, as with most traffic annoyances, is just to quietly curse at them as you go about your day and let the police deal with enforcing the laws.
When trying to teach someone a lesson, you might get the occasional person who was absent-mindedly being annoying, but most people are just going to come away from the interaction thinking YOU are the asshole. Not to mention the person who is being an asshole on purpose looking for confrontation...
I think you summed it up pretty well. It's a bit easier said then done to let go of your rage... But in my experience it's exactly like you said. I've kinda accepted that like 40% of people just can't drive. Any you just got to stay away from them and decide if you want to care. You can't change anything about it and the next a*hole or bad driver is already waiting for you anyways...
That is literally defensive driving.
One of the really annoying things we inherited from reddit are the crowd of idiots who think the entire world can be summed up in a driver's ed manual. Sometimes that manifests as "Driving 5 miles below the speed limit is the safest way to drive" and sometimes it manifests as... a jackass who is flooring it and swerving around traffic while flashing them with their signals because... they are maintaining the flow of traffic in the middle lane of a three lane highway?
The reality is that it doesn't matter what the law is (unless a cop is visible). The other person getting a ticket is a weak consolation when your car is totaled and you are potentially crushed by all the god damned monster trucks on the road.
Defensive driving is about protecting yourself and, by association, the other drivers on the road. If the flow of traffic is that everyone is going 90 on a 60? You should at least be going 80 if you at all feel safe doing so because the alternative is increasingly aggressive drivers around you and an increasing likelihood of getting rear ended by someone who decides they want to pass on the right without looking ahead.
And same here. I've more or less learned to ignore turn signals when I am at an intersection. People aren't turning right until they slow down and ACTUALLY start turning right. Doesn't matter if their blinker is on because it might have been on for the past ten miles or they realize at the last second it is not the turn they want.
And that also applies to highway. I genuinely forget what the driver's ed manual said, but let's say that you are supposed to try to stay in the rightmost lane unless you are actively passing and the idea is that the left lane is for passing the people passing in the middle lane (that sounds wrong to me but, again, no idea). Fuck the law. Because people will randomly slow down 30 miles at a time when they start trying to read the signs to figure out what exit they are in. And "the rules of the road" are generally that the right lane is for getting on and off the highway, the middle lane is for traffic moving "at speed", and the left lane is for passing... or driving 20 below the speed of the middle lane because you are the best driver ever but forgot what you were doing.
At the end of the day: it is about minimizing collisions (and, increasingly, lunatics with guns taking pot shots at you for existing). And a jackass who is swerving around and trying to shame people by flashing their blinkers is doing the opposite of that.
+1 on the "I’ve more or less learned to ignore turn signals"... That was about my second driving lesson. I tried to turn right onto the main street. Someone indicated to turn and I thought I'm now supposed to go. And my driving instructor would always let you make mistakes and then wait for the last moment to brake very abruptly so you really knew you fucked up. In that circumstance, it wasn't clear if the other driver was turning into the street I came from, or if they wanted to get to the gas station 30m ahead. Since I got my driver's license, I always wait if other people slow down and really do the thing they signal for.
I agree that driving isn't always like in the textbook. On the other hand many rules are there for a purpose and some safety regulations really are written in blood. You have to use your brain.
I don't know how highway's work where you live. There are countries/states that allow you to drive on arbitrary lanes. Or allow overtaking people on their right. Usually, doing what other drivers expect you to do, isn't the worst idea 😉
The big assumption you've made is that everything I've described is brought out of rage.
Only flashing the indicator could perhaps be rageful, and even then it's more of an innocuous vent than anything else.
Sure. Maybe I was a bit dramatic when I typed the reply. I know how annoying some other drivers are and how they make it worse for everyone. I wouldn't even be mad at you if lost your cool. And I'm not against using indicators or flashing your lights at people. That's kind of why we have them in the first place. Only thing I'd have a problem with is brake-checking people or intentinally getting too close. Flashing or honking to signal them to get out of the way is pretty alright in my eyes.
The best option would be for ongoing training for driving.
Police don't enforce the laws. Police are quite happy to punish people for speeding, because it's an easy charge to convict - it's much harder to convict someone with the crime of sitting in the middle lane. So they don't bother.
In my experience in the UK, most drivers actually respond to an interaction like I've described. When I flashed the indicator, then moved over to the inside lane, many drivers followed and moved into the inside lane. When I've looped around them, I've never been able to complete that many loops, because the other driver has realised what I'm doing and moved into the inside lane.
Communication =/= confrontation. When driving, we are very limited in our communication - but that doesn't mean there is no way to communicate.
Agreed 100% there!
The problem (and probably why you're getting downvoted) is that physically using your 2-ton vehicle travelling at freeway speeds to coerce someone into doing something is not really communicating. It's not a method prescribed by any kind of authority or training, and is actively discouraged by most! Sure it may get the result YOU want in the moment, but communication requires understanding.
Personally, if someone were to overtake me and then slow down intentionally, I'd take that as them being an inattentive driver at best, and a passive-aggressive jerk at worst.
It's definitely passive aggressive, but in my experience it wakes up drivers sat in the middle lane.
I'd agree that it's kind of asshole-ish, but not full blown asshole. However, it's perfectly legitimate to do, meanwhile sitting in the middle lane is explicitly illegal in most cases. I did find that it was better to slow down with the brakes, if only lightly to show the lights, as just taking your foot off the throttle was more likely to confuse. Also, I was sure to make it two separate lane change maneuvers with clear space in front of them, not just sweeping across two lanes across someone's nose.
Also, slowing down so that they pass you inevitably hurts you, as you end up accelerating more than necessary and reducing your fuel economy. Tbh, I don't do it that often, precisely for that reason.
Frankly, I wish beginner driving instructors would teach what I learned in advanced driver training:
I ended up working to 7 seconds, as I found 10 seconds was sometimes hard to judge at distance, and by the time I hummed over it I was well within the bounds of staying out. Meanwhile, if you ever drive in the Netherlands you'll find people cutting your nose off all over the place - they pull in right away.
Yeah, it's illegal here in Germany. It's likely considered a form of coercion and two wrongs don't make a right. And it's dangerous.
Same thing to get super close to other cars on the left lane, flash your lights and have your indicators signalling to the left constantly. It's kind of a dick move. And bad accidents have happened because of this. But it happens every day on the streets.
I don't participate in that behaviour. I can't be angry at the world the whole time. And there are soo many bad drivers out there. It'll take you ten minutes and the next person pulls to the left lane without having a look into the mirrors. Or can't drive straight and on the right lane like they're supposed to do. And I don't think it does anything to lecture those middle-lane hoggers. In my experience they're mostly way past learning anything.
Maybe by a strict reading of the rules, but it would certainly be hard to prove that one loop around someone would be illegal. There's plenty of legitimate reasons to pull in and slow down after travelling at speeds, even if you've just overtaken someone.
I challenge you to explain how this is more dangerous than slowly overtaking someone at nearly the same speed.
Driving is inherently dangerous. Overtaking someone is dangerous. It's all about the relative significance of the risk - what I'm proposing is not a significant risk in any way, especially when the maneuvers are executed properly and with care, per driver training. Specifically, you pull ahead well in front of them, move over in two moves, then don't slow down until you're in the inside lane (and slow down gently with inidication via the brake lights).
I've only ever done the loop thing when I'm driving in a very relaxed way, like I say it costs me money in excess fuel through accelerating up again. Even without the money thing, it's the inefficiency of the move that bothers me.
At the same time, living in a country where this is an exasperating problem, it's nice to be able to communicate with people and have them realise they're causing a problem. Most drivers I see carry on sat in the middle lane without even realising - at least, until you make a loop, then they quickly realise and pull in. Even pulling into the inside lane and driving away in front of them causes no reaction 98/100 times.
I think this is skewed by your experiences driving in Germany. The standard of driving there is so much better than many other countries, particularly the UK which I'm referencing. When I've driven in Germany, the only real issues I've had have been around rush hour, the rest of the time people aren't even in the way to begin with (or they're driving faster than me).
Frankly, I think driving licenses should be subject to mandatory re-training every 5 years. Not like a pass/fail test, but a compulsory course. That way, changes in roadcraft can be taught, and bad habits can hopefully be addressed before they fester.
StVO § 3 Absatz 2 says you're not allowed to drive slower than necessary if it impedes traffic.
StVO § 4 Absatz 1 says you're not allowed to thwart (is that the right word?) someone unless you're forced to do. (And you got to keep your distance.)
It's an immediate 20€ fine, or 30€ if it caused an accident. (Bußgeldkatalog: "Tatbestand: Sie bremsten als Vorausfahrender ab, ohne dass dafür ein Grund bestand. Es kam zu einer Gefährdung des nachfolgenden Verkehrsteilnehmers." -- Fine: 20€, caused an accident: 30€)
Next step after the 20€ fine is they treat it as coercion and that's not a fun accusation any more.
You're right. The police rarely is around if you need them. And things like that happen every day. And nothing will happen in 99 point something percent this happens. And it's difficult to prove. But they will prosecute people for that, on the occasion that they become aware and have the time to deal with that.
a) You needlessly get less distance between the both of you. Now there isn't enough space to respond to other things without crashing into you or doing dangerous maneuvers. b) The other driver could drive shittily because of a reason. Maybe they can't drive. Or are 95 years old. Or are playing with their phone or paying attention to their GPS and that's why they're hogging the middle lane and doing stupid stuff. They'll crash into you because they literally won't see you in front of them. Or they look up from their phone, catch sight in the last second, get startled and start swerving around. This has happened and happens from time to time. c) You do this to a truck/lorry and the emergency brake system will get activated. Spilling the driver's coffee and causing yet more trouble for the traffic behind them.
You don't want to be the cause for an accident on the motorway (or anywhere). And if you do that in traffic, you're going to annoy a few ten thousans of people who are now going to be late at work or waste their time.
And I don't think you should compare risks without also talking about the circumstances. Overtaking is a necessary maneuver. Brake-checking someone isn't. Even if it were the same amount of risk. It could be avoided and generally, risk should be minimized. (And overtaking someone is not allowed unless you drive significantly faster than them. So that scenario would be illegal, too. (StVO §5 (2)))
That's also what bothers me. You either are in a hurry and want to drive fast. Or you have all the time to lecture people and do loops. I'm always fascinated by people who combine both. They want everyone out of their way, but then suddenly muster up lots of time to do things like that. I usually honk at people or flash the lights and then I put 'the pedal to the metal' and get on with my day.
If it helps, there may be some merit to this. But that hasn't been what I've experienced. People will just get annoyed and either defiance kicks in and they shut down, or their belief that they're right and everyone else is wrong solidifies even more. And most people don't respond well to tit for tat, anyways. (Slowing them down after they slowed you down.) Honking at them is in my oppinion a better way to make them aware. (This of course has limitations, too. I've seen people drive without lights at night, flashed my lights at them for like a minutes straight. And they either didn't notice or thought I'm the idiot. I had to pull up next to them at the next traffic light and tell them... Some drivers are just weird...)
Yeah. I believe so, too. I've yet to visit the UK. Somehow I never got around to do so. Germany regularly gets praised for it's standard of driving. And our perspective and what kind of things we have to deal with is probably very different. However, I think the percentage of idiots in the population should be around the same. And I'm basing a good amount of what I'm saying on rush hour, because sadly that's often when you have to commute or get somewhere. And I live in the city, so that's another thing. I usually take the train, so I'm dealing with other issues on a daily basis.
That would upset many people and be very unpopular in politics. But I think it'd be a good idea. And everyone would benefit from a safer environment. They could also force people to do a first-aid course every now and then. I've witnessed 2 bicycle accidents this year and for some people the last time they heard about first-aid was 30 years ago when they got their drivers license. Just my oppinion.
[Edit: Sorry you get down-voted so much. Maybe I don't agree with some things. But I don't find it offensive or outrageous what you're saying. Just be careful on the street and do things with sanity and reason.]
Traffic isn't being impeded, you're slowing down in an empty lane.
Safe distance is being maintained, you're slowing down in an empty lane.
Also, as I said before, you could have plenty of other reasons to pull into the inside lane and slow down after overtaking someone, letting them pass you in the middle lane. So one loop has plausible deniability, though 2 or more would be pretty obvious. Still, I feel like most police officers would just give you a talking to, rather than a ticket, they'd laugh and tell you not to do it again - if they're even around to stop you.
I'm not sure you fully understand the manuever:
It's not brake checking them, you're in a completely separate lane. They have no reason or need to slow down. If I saw them on their phone when I first overtook them I probably would think of them as hazardous and just leave them alone, continuing on my way.
Generally I don't get angry on the road. Like you, most of the time I'll just flash my lights (I'd only honk if they did something particularly dangerous), wait until they're out of the way then drive on. The loop thing is more of a bit of fun, and like I say in my experience most drivers realise it and pull in. I think in Germany there are far fewer drivers sat in the middle lane, and the ones that do are maybe more stubborn. In the UK so many people do it that a good portion of them are reasonable, just not properly trained/they have bad habits.
I actually learned the trick when I was kayaking at uni, it was one of their games for long journies. Another was stopping at a red light and shouting "ALL CHANGE" then everyone would get out of the car and change seats. It's a bit naughty, there is some small risk, but generally it's just a bit of fun. You can only listen to Venga Boys so much before you get bored.
Most likely.
The thing with rush hour is you probably wouldn't get the opportunity to loop around them. You need a good deal of clear space on the road to be able to complete the move, with one car sat in the middle lane and nothing in the inside lane for a long way. It basically has to be just the 2 of you for a few hundred metres.
First aid would be good also. I've had some first aid training, and very soon after had the opportunity to use it - an old guy at a pub missed the bench and fell and hit his head. Everyone else was panicked, I got up, told someone to call an ambulance and managed to wake him by shouting his name, then his eyes sprung open. Sure, it's nothing like fitting a tourniquet, but it was a funky experience, then when the paramedics came I faded into the background and got back to my pint. In general, more training is a good thing. In fact, coming back to driving, I'm aware that I've developed some bad habits (skills degrade with age) and this would be mitigated by ongoing training.
No need to apologise though, I can tell you're being very well reasoned. Also, downvotes don't really have any consequence (not like on reddit, where your comment would get hidden and you might get rate limited). It's been good chatting with you.
Aaaaaah, No, I didn't understand. I don't know what I was thinking of, but now I get it... That should be perfectly alright. If you loop all the way around them on a 3-lane road, that's just silly. But I don't see any regulation prohibiting it. I don't think I've ever seen this happen in the wild, just on YouTube. But there aren't many 3-lane roads where I live, anyways.
The rules I mentioned all specifically state that someone needs to follow or be impeded (even endangered). In that case you have your own lane and you're relatively free to do whatever you like. It is mildly wrong, because you're causing lots of overtakings both from you and the other person and they all have a tiny, but greater than 0 risk associated with them. And you do this because you're guided by emotions. And you're not supposed to do that while operating heavy machinery like a car.
But I'd say it's probably on the same level of 'dangerous' like enjoying music while driving or talking to your passenger.
Oh, you got me confused a bit there. Seems we have different terms for the lanes. In my perspective the inside lane would be the one in the middle of the road, close to the central barrier. And the outside one at the verge where the emergency lane and the embarkment/vegetation is.
You're right. We've already established that we probably have very different perspectives on driving. Most likely just due to population density. I'm like medium-old now. I drive for like 15-20 years at this point. And I live in the "Ruhrgebiet" which is a somewhat densely populated, metropolitan area. When I was about 20, I had a good amount of fun driving cars. We did lot's of stupid stuff, including the "all change" game. Or do childish things and blast music and get pulled over by police at 2am. I think it's only natural that you calm down a bit with age. But also things have changed in the last 15 years. There are lots more cars on the road. I don't know exact numbers but I think rush hour starts 30-45mins earlier now and also lasts longer. And there's a good amount of traffic during the day. We have some of the most well used motorways of the country here. And they're mostly 2 lanes per direction, because there is city on either side and there was never any space to build a wider road. I mean we've always had traffic jams at rush hour. And a good amount of them, too. But I think driving has become more annoying within my lifetime.
However, I don't think people have changed substantially. They still do the same mistakes. Can't switch lanes properly, don't do it the right way if there's a lane blocked by construction (you're supposed to wait for the last moment and then merge alternating, one car from each lane in turn). Or they're breaking or overly switching lanes in a traffic jam and cause yet more people to slow down and make it worse. All of this is certainly more pronounced, the more traffic there is. I don't think this will ever change (unless artificial intelligence takes over). Seems to me like driving isn't that easy and some people just aren't up to it, intellectually. It's certainly a skewed perspective, but it always feels like you meet all of them (stupid people) on the road.
(I think there have been studies and the vast majority of people consider themselves a better-than-average driver. And statistics obviously don't work like that. Half of the people have to be below-average.)
Enough ranting from me. I also get them on the train. There's often the situation that the train arrives at 7am at a main station, 400 people are trying to disembark but there is this one granny standing right in front of the door and trying to make her way in right now, against the flood of people. And they also like to use the moving staircase and then take one step off of it, stop and look around if they're on the correct platform. All whilst the escalator pushes some more 50 commuters into their back. It doesn't happen every day, but often enough so that it annoys me. Guess it's better if you live in Japan. But people certainly have their own, individual struggles and annoyances of everyday lives in any society.
I think I've somehow accepted that. I'm not a proper stoic. And I won't push over that old lady in front of the train door. But I might bump into you (mildly) if you're younger and should know better. I'm certainly not taking care to get around and allow you to do it. In my personal opinion people should sometimes be able to feel when they're in the wrong. All within reason, of course. I think - generally - the same thing applies to road traffic.
(And there are lots of nice and well-educated people, too. I feel I should mention that. And I always try to be polite and say thanks to them.)
Hah, yeah, I had to be little bit ambiguous, I couldn't just say "left, middle, right" for a 3-lane road, as that would mean different things for people from the US or Germany, and I'd probably just confuse myself trying to swap them!
Driving styles have definitely changed over the years. In the UK, they've introduced "Smart Motorways", which basically have gantries every so often with speed limit signs over them. They can very the speed limit on the fly or handle lane closures or whatever. Some also have speed cameras, but not all that many in the end and you can easily spot them - even so, people have generally slowed down to the 70mph (~120kph) speed limit now. In some respects this is good, but you also end up with cars overtaking each other very slowly with very little difference in speed, clogging up the road.
What I find really interesting is how driving styles change even across different regions of the country. You can see people behaving differently in the north and south of the UK, or even in specific areas - down near Brighton there are a lot of 2-lane A-roads where people all queue up in the outside lane waiting on 2 lorries overtaking each other, leaving the inside lane completely empty. In Europe, like I mentioned, there's this weird change when you cross the border from Germany into the Netherlands - not just the difference in speed (Netherlands seem to be very sharp on speeding, meanwhile Autobhan is generally unrestricted) but also drivers in the Netherlands pull in almost immediately, so quickly you might feel the need to slow down because they're so close in front of you.
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