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The state of the discourse.
(lemmy.world)
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this post was submitted on 17 Nov 2023
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A Boring Dystopia
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Interesting that you mentioned the removal of Hamas from power but not the current Isreali government.
If polling is accurate, they will be voted out soon enough. To remove Hamas one needs the ammo box, as they have removed the ballot box as an option.
True, but it doesn't require killing civilians to accomplish. Just assassinate the Hammas leadership until there's no one left who wants to risk it. Mossad is pretty good at tracking people down.
Cut off the head and the body will die.
But, that's pretending that Israel just wants to protect itself instead of looking for an excuse to genocide.
OOOoh now I understand! Just kill Hamas, it's easy! Wish we'd thought of that sooner. Wow, war must be a breeze. No innocents ever die in wars!
If we wanted a genocide it would have happened a hell of a lot quicker. Bombing the places where the refugees are gathered, for example, instead of telling them to get out of harm's way.
The whole situation is fucked, and war is fucked. There are no easy answers.
Finally someone that gets it... People think fighting those terrorists is just like a computer game, where the objective is simple and doable. Just stroll on and kill all of the Hamas leaders, which are conveniently located in the same room. Cue the 'boss fight' music!
They don't understand how these people operate.
I mean they sometimes literally march civilians in front of their troops in active combat. It doesn't help that their fighters are sometimes dressed as civilians, either.
The IDF also has to guard those humanitarian corridors themselves otherwise Hamas would shoot down all those trying to evacuate.
If Israel didn't care about civilian deaths the war would be over on October 8th.
In one month and a half, Israel has killed 1 out of every 200 Gazans. For comparison, the death toll in Gaza is about 11000 civilians, while the death toll in Ukraine is 9700 (in 19 months). Isn't that quick enough to you?
...only to bomb the people who are getting out of harm's way: https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/live-blog/israel-hamas-war-live-updates-rcna120252 https://www.cnn.com/2023/10/16/middleeast/israel-palestinian-evacuation-orders-invs/index.html https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/why-is-israel-attacking-south-gaza-after-telling-people-go-there-2023-10-25/
Your examples are clearly designed to create outrage, but you haven't invalidated their point with your statistics or articles. Israel could have killed everyone in Gaza immediately were they so inclined. They are a nuclear power. They have access to many munitions and tactics they haven't used and probably will never use.
IDF has been clear that they will attack legitimate Hamas targets anywhere. Yes, even under refugee camps. Yes, even in the south.
So, we have to be grateful that Israel hasn't dropped a fucking nuke, how magnanimous! Not to mention the little detail that nuclear fallout doesn't care about borders. A nuke in Gaza would kill hundreds of thousands in Israel.
The previous comment tried to argue that Israel wasn't committing genocide because they didn't bomb refugee camps and because they evacuated the population, and I showed that both of the claims are false. The rest is you moving the goalposts.
And the IDF will bomb as many civilians as they need to to remove them from power!
The government of Israel is at least somewhat democratic. That makes removing it a bit more thorny than removing an organization like Hamas, because one either has to effectively just force an election there, which carries the risk that the same people (or people with the same ideology, if you forbid the specific people currently in power) might just win it and keep things the same, or replace the entire system with something that isn't democratic, which is generally viewed as a bad thing in itself. It's also move salvageable though for the same reason: there's little chance that someone wanting peace and resolution will somehow take over Hamas, it would be antithetical to what their organization even is, but the policies of a government like Isreal's at least have the potential to dramatically shift if people wanting those things take hold of it.
Sure that can change, too. I don't live there, so it didn't come to mind. My desires mean nothing to anyone by me- but I want the violence to stop.
I can't imagine that the Israeli people so close to the border are just totally fine with what happened to the civilians and likely would want their government overhauled- but again, I don't live there. I only know what the media as told me, and I acknowledge that all that could even be a lie.
It's messy
Indeed it is messy. But "removing" Hamas from power is about as easy as "removing" Bibi and his cabal from power. They feed off each other, and blame each other just enough to sway their populace into letting them stay in power.
The problem isn't as easily fixed as "just take Hamas... and put it over there".
Bibi can be removed via an election. There literally does not exist a method of removing Hamas other than violence, either from the people of Gaza or an external force.
Never said it was.
I have no stakes in the game. Just an opinion
Every government should be removed from power