this post was submitted on 15 Nov 2023
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Baby was immediately taken to a state if the art NICU and had a whole team of specialists. Still has a 0.5 chance of not having brain damage when she grows up.
This is an absolutely amazing thing. But the tweet makes it seem. Like he just st with the baby and rubbed her chest. Not that she was being treated with the best equipment and by the best people.
And as you said: it's pretty likely that children like this have developmental and/or behavioral issues.
This life-at-any-cost approach might be understandable for the individual parent/relative, but it's not exactly the best approach if you're a bit more detached and less emotional.
Yikes. Why is this being up voted here?
Translation: let babies who are likely to have developmental issues die.
Translation: you are exactly the myopic, emotion-driven kind of person I was talking about.
You are potentially forcing a life of misery onto the child, its parents and society as a whole, just because you are too cowardly to say that yes, some lives are not worth living. This is a mercy that every street dog is subject to, but humans not.
And don't act all "hurr durr value of human life", just look around the world. We all ignore millions of cruel deaths because it would be like real inconvenient to help them. You are dishonest and hypocritical.
You know that just because the kid might have a chance to develop mental disabilities doesn't mean the child is going to have a life of ''misery'' the child might be able to live a full life, the child might require a bit of support or might require alot of support depending on the severity of the child's mental disabilities
Plus who the fuck are you to decide whenever a life is worth living or not. This decision in this very specific situation should be upto both the parents and doctors
No, I just actually care about people with special needs and don't want to murder them. I have a special needs kid and I know plenty of other kids with special needs who are very happy to be alive and happy that they have parents that love them and didn't try to murder them when they were babies.
What you suggest is eugenics and it's rightly thought of on the same level as the Holocaust. It's abhorrent.
So you are emotional and irrational. You are not the right person to ask here and your opinion has hardly any value.
BTW: it's not eugenics, but euthanasia. Which is granted to every sick animal. Get your facts straight.
Euthanasia is for people who want to die. Not for murdering babies with special needs.
You're hardly qualified to judge that.
The hubris you need to have to tell someone "you are not qualified to decide about life and death, unlike me".
Would you ask an alcoholic, whether alcohol is good?
Or a Christian if Jesus is the son of God?
Or someone with a Cat in New Zealand whether that's a good idea?
Emotional attachment clouds judgment.
You do not know how that person reached their conclusions. For all you know, it might be an ethical framework you know shit about, or the verification that plenty of human beings will often assume incapacity to live an adequate life rather than a rational analysis of all viable options.
All humans are subject to rationalize as the result of their emotions rather than to actually reason. I'm going to go ahead and use your scale of acceptable evidence to judge whether other people are rational or not and assume that you're irrational because your narcissism prevents you from analyzing the biases you'll easily assume are clouding anyone else's judgement.
Lol I like that you're pretending to be the logical one here
How am I arguing illogical?
Seriously, explain to me, how can anybody want to create a life that is objectively way at the lower end of quality of life? How can you justify shelling out thousands of euro/dollar/whatever for such a person, while others are left more or less to die?
"Objectively" does a lot of heavy lifting there. If you want to make the utilitarian argument, then make it, sure, but I don't think you'd find anyone advocating for not killing special needs people, but then turning around and agreeing that like, normal people should die, or suffer some dire fate in the stead of special needs people. I don't think we should really be pushing any orphans into the orphan crushing machine, personally, and I don't think it's probably an accurate dichotomy to say that the machine is inevitable.
If you also want arguments for why special needs people should be allowed to exist. People born without legs, they incur a certain cost on society, sure, but they also do a lot of good just by passively kind of existing. The ramps on the entrances of buildings, right, they're obviously for those people, but they can also be for elderly people who have a hard time with stairs, people who have lost their legs in some sort of incident, people who need to transport a large unwieldy piece of furniture. The ramps benefit everyone. If an intersection can be crossed properly by the blind, if it's designed for it, then, sure, it might not be the best idea, but you could cross it while on your phone, or reading a book, or generally distracted by whatever visual stimulus. And if we're doing all those things to accommodate people who aren't necessarily disabled, then it shouldn't matter that much whether someone is or isn't, because it doesn't cost us anything to just let them exist, and their insights can be valuable.
That doesn't even get in to how you might theoretically be able to, I dunno cure autism, or heart palpitations, or what have you, in the future, with gene therapy, making every life lost now kind of a short-sighted tragedy. Or how you could turn the logic around, and say, oh, well nobody really consents to being born, giving birth is unethical, like the psycho antinatalists do. Or how you could extend this logic to say, hey, maybe we should kill all old people, eliminate hospice care.
Should we abort anyone with impoverished parents? After all, they have an objectively worse quality of life than wealthy people. Tell me exactly where you draw the line between "they will live a happy life" and "they should be killed, it's a mercy". Tell me exactly how you define "objectively way at the lower end of quality of life". Downs syndrome? Cancer? Asthma?
I mean honestly you just sound like an edgy teenager - safe bet that you probably are. But you need to realize there's a difference between cynicism and logic.
Hm, could we may find a difference between nature and nurture? Would that be possible here? Even arguing like that is dishonest (or stupid, you decide).
Tell me exactly how you define life. Birth? Conception? Somewhere it between?
How do you define adulthood? 14? 21? Something in between?
This argumentation, again, is dishonest. Decisions like that Steve clear cut. There's a mixture of scientific and cultural valuations at play. And at the end, you can make a cutoff at some point.
BTW: it's already perfectly normal practice to abort disabled children. There's a reason why there are relatively few people with down syndrome in Germany, they get aborted - and that much later than regular abortions. If someone would abort a healthy fetus at this stage, it would be considered murder.
So you're willing to kill developmentally disabled babies, but unwilling to define developmentally disabled. Got it.
Awesome arguments. Maybe you want to explain what is wrong is here. I suspect, I'm correct and you're just talking out of your ass.
"Quality of life" vs "quantity of life" is a question that can be discussed at both ends.
Extending life at all costs is not always the best path.
Society has grown more comfortable having this conversation with regards to the elderly and the terminally ill because it's easy for them to weigh in on their own circumstances.
It's a harder conversation when it comes to accident victims or those profoundly stricken by a malady, because they often can't weigh in.
When it comes to neonatal or infants, it's harder yet because they can't weigh in and they're so precious to us.
No one is talking euthanasia without express consent, that's monsterous.
Asking if the effort is worth it is different though. As unfortunate as it is, some people never experience enough happiness in their lives to justify the pain we were able to save them for.
It's sad, but there are people who would rather have been allowed to die than to have to wait 18 years for assisted suicide.
Considering the baby is probably in her 20s by now, probably less equipment then, but you make a good point.
It's also a little like people giving God the credit when it's Humans and Science and Medical Intervention that performed the miracle.
For the Americans who don't understand the severity. 450 grams is less than 1 pound.
Hardly even a meal.
How much is a baby unlikely to survive? I looked up as you did thr conversion of grams to pounds and then looked up normal newborn weight... and it says less than 5 pounds is unhealthy, but not so fatal but won't say how much is 50 50 of survival? And how much is a 99 percent chance? But I can wager a guess that less than a pound when 5 and a half pounds is dangerous must be... incredible.
My son was born at just over a pound and from the start they said his chances where very good and will just need time to grow in the NICU . From what I was told under a pound there is much more risk .
I had someone come into one of my classes who worked in an NICU come in to talk about it and showed us a picture of the usual state of the room for a baby like this.
Imagine this but 10 times more machines and wires. The picture she showed was just a sea.