this post was submitted on 03 Oct 2023
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That's definitely not universal. I personally have heard people say racist, transphobic, etc. stuff without anyone shunning them because they were co-workers, relatives and other groups you can't shun without things getting awkward. Besides, aren't you in fact advocating for not having Nazi and pedo shit around, since the obvious analogy for being shunned IRL would be getting banned online for being a Nazi or pedo?
I am infact quite happy to have as few Nazis and pedos in my corner of the internet as possible, just think it's inevitable they're going to be somewhere with the nature of self hosted platforms like lemmy
This thread is about lemm.ee, the instance your account is on, defederating from a Nazi pedo instance. That means not having them in your corner of the internet. Why are you arguing against this?
I'm not lol just wanted to have a conversation about the topic because the "free speech except these people" viewpoint requires some objective point of reference for what's acceptable.
It's fairly obvious to 99% of people when it's things like Nazis and pedos but it's not always as clearcut with more controversial topics
Lemmy instances having their own rules and defederating from those they don't like seems like the best solution provided there are enough of them that users can jump ship if they don't like the way they're run
Okay o' wise liberal of the lake. What are these "controversial topics"?
Please enlighten us and get to the fucking point.
Furries, lot of people don't like them but also don't think they should be globally silenced unless they are actual zoophiles
People using words other people don't like that aren't necessarily used in a hateful way, some people don't want to see that some don't care.
Was on a gmod server before that had a total free speech rule where people would say horrendous shit to be edgy but one day they banned one slur for one group of people specifically which felt kinda weird
Hexbears. A lot of people call for you guys to get defederated, but have seen a few hexbears be genuinely nice and helpful. I'm sure you can see my point with that one
Such as?
Furries, lot of people don't like them but also don't think they should be globally silenced unless they are actual zoophiles
People using words other people don't like that aren't necessarily used in a hateful way, some people don't want to see that some don't care.
Was on a gmod server before that had a total free speech rule where people would say horrendous shit to be edgy but one day they banned one slur for one group of people specifically which felt kinda weird
Hexbears. A lot of people call for you guys to get defederated, but have seen a few hexbears be genuinely nice and helpful. I'm sure you can see my point with that one
So you think people should be able to use slurs. Big suprise there
Pedophilia and Nazi shit are not acceptable. How fucking hard is that to understand?
Quit JAQing off and answer my questions motherfucker.
Human welfare as decided by the humans in question. If we agree that we would overall benefit from Nazis being cast out, then that is all that is needed to cast them out.
The Nazis can vote in their favor, be outvoted, and then be treated mercilessly by the majority if they cling to their fascism. It's really quite simple.
And if the system is one where the Nazis win such a contest, then debating about parliamentary bullshit is a waste of time because you are talking about a system where Nazis are a majority power. At that point, the system is something to oppose by whatever means necessary, not something to reform and critique like the Nazis give a shit what you think except to purge you.
it extremely doesn't. communities have standards -- they get to decide.
I'd extremely like to know what more controversial topics you have in mind
Furries, lot of people don't like them but also don't think they should be globally silenced unless they are actual zoophiles
People using words other people don't like that aren't necessarily used in a hateful way, some people don't want to see that some don't care.
Was on a gmod server before that had a total free speech rule where people would say horrendous shit to be edgy but one day they banned one slur for one group of people specifically which felt kinda weird
Hexbears. A lot of people call for you guys to get defederated, but have seen a few hexbears be genuinely nice and helpful. I'm sure you can see my point with that one
nah, slurs 100℅ deserve a ban. miss me with this shit. Im also shocked, shocked that you defend the use of slurs. I wonder why you'd use a website like that
lmao it's definitely impossible to make the case that a group of largely queer people deserve protection - I've definitely never made this case at length and vigorously on this website because it's impossible to do without uhhh checks notes
.
lmao, I and most other hexbears don't give the smallest shit if liberals defed us because we're rude. we carved out a place for ourselves and made a happy and comfortable home for 3 years without federation - we recruit offline, into orgs, not online. lemmy is a place for us to decompress and commiserate, not a means or an end.
Put it to a vote. If they vote against us, then c'est la vie. My only stipulation is that we get a chance to present our case (as our opponents also would).
Great and if they retreat further and further into Nazi/Pedo instances instead of engaging with the criticism and condemnation of their views and actions then that just curates for us a list of people that need to be excised from society at large. Online or otherwise.
This creates a list of people that should be placed in reeducation programs post-revolution. I don't see a problem with it.
Why are you so worried about Nazi and pedo shit getting silenced? I am beginning to suspect you might have an ulterior motive here.
If you concentrate them all into one place they reinforce their own views and don't get told to stfu by others on the internet, the problem is this way they don't get silenced, just hidden
Reeducation programs sound very dystopian to me
Okay so what is your alternative? Throw them into a pit and bury them? Let them continue to spread their virulent bigotry?
I think reeducation programs sounds pretty humane to me.
If you believe in the so-called "free marketplace of ideas" then you need some reeducation yourself honestly. Fucking look around you. Where has that brought you?
Also calling reeducation "dystopian" while the US prison slavery market exists is fucking rich.
You're basically also doing slavery apologia right now.
You literally cannot conceive of anything outside the hegemonic worldview of liberal capitalism that is being contested right now. You are doing the exact same retreat to an echo chamber that you decry, but the echo chamber is in your own head and the walls are these thought terminating cliches you keep regurgitating.
got his ass lol
explain yourself or I am going to ban you from Hexbear and inform the lemm.ee mods that you need to be banned for Nazi/pedo apologia.
you have 24 hours. I am going to work now.
Go fuck yourself.
If you read my responses to more civil users you'll get any answers you want
I suspect you don't want answers you just want a witch hunt though
OH NO!!! The CIVILITY!
Bruh what the fuck you think you were talking about when you claimed people should be shunned for saying horrible shit.
Cuz that is what is happening to you right now.
I think the solution is force them to integrate with society and not give them the opportunity to have an echo chamber which may well mean in this case defederating as you can't do anything about them
Also yeah fuck the us prison system I never once claimed the US government were not also fucked.
Can't actually find any other questions in your wall of text there to answer the rest is just personally attacking me
lmao you call this a wall of text? Your comment is almost as long...
fuck you, being forced to deal with people who would kill me given half the chance is not something I will ever do. I will oppose them by any means necessary, regardless of what the broader society thinks of such.
So what, it's better to have Nazis and pedos out in the open? Do you think you'll give them a West Wing speech and they'll magically realize the error of their ways? Nazis aren't looking for people to challenge their views.
CW: CSA
spoiler
Its honestly even more unfathomable to imagine talking people out of it in the case of what instance is being discussed for defederation here: an instance with a comm for pedophiles who are pro-contact and think children can consent. You can't fucking debate a pro-contact pedophile out of being pro-contact. I'm a strong rehabilitationist so I wouldn't want to execute them and would consider chemical castration a last resort (also, whats the science on that? does that even work?) so I would go with isolation from society where they can't hurt kids and deep, deep fucking therapy, and possibly restorative justice if they have actually victimized anyone. But individuals online are not going to convince a fucking pro-contact pedophile that sex with kids is wrong. And you definitely aren't going to be able to use debate to get them to stop being attracted to kids in the first place.Like, fuck, if the comm was for anti-contact pedophiles who strictly gather for the purpose of supporting each other in remaining strong in their convictions, then I wouldn't want to nuke the community from existence (as long as thats ALL its for, and they arent like sharing fantasies with each other and other shit). Still wouldn't want to be federated with them though. Don't want to see that shit.
I've looked this up before (admittedly it was kind of cursory) and from what I could tell the conclusion was that it doesn't seem to, that its apparent success cases seem to be from other factors (rehabilitation, gaming the diagnostic system, etc.) rather than the procedure itself having the desired effect. I don't really know what is true, but just wanted to mention it since you asked.
Anyway, I think you're correct in all of your assessments there. I'd even say federating with an anti-contact, anti-CSAM, anti-fantasy (etc.) instance would be worth considering once instances can be blocked, simply because they are trying to help people not be predators, but I can see why other people would be uncomfortable with such a thing. The instance in question, however, is not and cannot be any of those things and should be illegal to run.
that's hard to do without exposing victims of CSA to it. better I think to recommend people go there if they need a place to talk about it.
Fair enough
So are you going to actually reply to my question?
What are these controversial topics you are afraid of not being allowed to discuss?
Get to the fucking point.
Explain yourself or fuck off.
Explain yourself mfer.
They don't just get hidden, they get suppressed and repressed. Their views are less widespread and influential. They are more often ignored by the workings of power and economy. Shove the nazis into a hole and seal it up, good riddance.
This is a good point, less people that know about the echo chamber the less they recruit which I guess keeps them isolated but they will always find ways to attract more of their own
I appreciate you being one of few people who doesn't immediately jump to hurling insults
getting banned is silencing them, fool. it prevents them from recruiting more people. they can talk to themselves day in and day out but without fresh meat they can't grow. the lesson of the last decade is that deplatforming 100% works. your free speech bullshit is exactly how nazis cover for themselves. liberals clutching pearls about muh
just provides them a defense.
free speech for who, for what purpose, and at what cost? do you ever stop and think about the people harmed by the presence of the people you're JAQing off for?
everyone has a line past which they won't tolerate "free speech" -- if they were advocating for the murder of the people you love 0% chance you'd be pulling this shit. the problem is you feel safe and comfortable in the knowledge that they don't threaten you. you're comfortable with the bigotry, shielded by the bottomless chasm of your ignorance. wake up call: if they seize power, they will hurt you and everyone you love, just as much as the rest of us. you're not fucking safe.
Very well said. These motherfuckers will be lined up right along side us in the death camps.
They have always had their own platforms, using forum software and the like. They will use any free software regular people will use. They always had their own isolated corners of the internet.
So then the question is whether these people would cease to be nazis or pedophiles if only they interacted with "normal" people. Decades of that mindset have gone by and the answer is "no." They want tu be in normie spaces to convince others, they're not going to deradicalize like that. Deradicalization is hard, time consuming for volunteers, and rare, as well as rarely complete. And even if it were effective, it is unethical to demand the people they target be the ones to deradicalize them. Nobody here signed an agreement to be a nazi pedo's unpaid therapist.