this post was submitted on 15 Jun 2023
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I think this is going to produce some interesting results, which will likely help progress Lemmy as a whole.
One of the regular topics coming up is users not knowing which instance they should create a user on, and what the implications of being a user on a particular instance are. This change by the Beehaw is going to clarify some of the implications and help drive people towards one instance or another, or even to have multiple accounts on different instances.
I think this will increase the adoption of Beehaw for users that the Beehaw admins are looking for in their community, which benefits the Beehaw instance. Conversely, I think the more general communities on Beehaw that aren't there specifically for the community Beehaw is trying to foster will likely migrate to the equivalent communities on other instances and settle there. While Beehaw was popular and federated it made sense to subscribe to [email protected], but now it's defederated I'd expect an equivalent community on a more permissive and widely federated instance to gain traction.
Right now it feels pretty disruptive. Arguably this occurring now with a relatively small number of users (thousands rather than millions) affected is preferable and will help shake out these issues, which will make it smoother for future users.
It will help Lemmy become more resilient. The tooling to help manage an instance defederating is also likely to be useful for instances going offline, or otherwise disconnecting from the fediverse. Better that that tooling is in place early.
I disagree, lemmy is seeing a temporary boost from all of us reddit refugees. We need content and a welcoming community for everyone to stay. This sort of infighting and politicking is going to come across as toxic and exactly the sort of thing redditors wanted to get away from.
If it were done later when the fediverse is bigger and more stable with enough critical mass of content, separating will affect more users but it will be least disruptive to the fediverse as a whole.
I can see your point and do agree that it's disruptive now. It also exacerbates the difficulty of learning a new platform. Despite that though I think the early adopters are best equipped to cope with that. They're already dealing with rough tooling and little documentation, official or social.
In terms of it happening when Lemmy, or even the fediverse as a whole, is bigger, if there aren't tools and practices in place to manage it I think the impact would be significantly more detrimental. Without it happening in 'the early days' those tools and practices are a lot less likely to be developed.
I think that idea is exactly what both Beehaw and lemmy.world are trying to do. I don't know all the thinking of the instance admins, but from my observations I see Beehaw prioritising their community and lemmy.world prioritising federation and availability. I don't see it as 'infighting and politicking', just co-existing view points for managing instances. To put it in terms of popular monolithic platforms, I'd imagine there would be a bit of a shakedown if 4chan, reddit, slashdot, digg, et al. started federating. I'll not attempt to draw parallels between lemmy instances and other platforms, that's above my pay grade :)
I imagine we'll end up with a spectrum of instances with varying degrees of federation and permisiveness, and that the directory services that are popping up will continue to improve to help you find and instance that works for you.
I think one of the challenges with migration is that reddit doesn't map one-to-one with Lemmy. With a monolithic platform, centralised admin can enforce the types of things I think your hoping for. On Lemmy I think inter-instance differences are inevitable, while on reddit the concepts didn't exist for it to become possible. Working through how those are handled will result in Lemmy as a whole improving.
I'm pretty optimistic about it.
As a redditor it seems like scary infighting
As a lemmonereringer it seems intriguing, im interested where this goes and i will follow up on the development
As a drun,k im drunk๐
"subreddit drama" on steroids. The politics of federation might take substantial airtime in lemmy
Sounds like you had a fun evening!
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I know we can have multiple accounts (and I am sure apps will help the experience), but I almost signed up for Beehaw as it was big and chose here
I am glad I didn't sign up and will probably unsubscribe to anything I was subbed to there as I can't post, maybe I'll signup so I can just in case there's anything interesting...
I was thinking about the multiple accounts thing. Maybe the concept of an "instance" needs to be separate from the concept of an account? Like, it doesn't matter what service you choose for your email account; you can email anyone from Gmail, and anyone can send email to you. The only real difference is that your email address end in "@gmail.com" instead of "@comcast.net".
On Lemmy, though, the place you make your account matters a whole lot. It determines what content you're allowed to see, and who you're allowed to interact with. If the instance you're on gets federated, you need to migrate to a different account on a different instance. That never happens with email!
A lot of users have been managing this by creating their own instance, with the sole purpose of hosting their account and nothing else. Maybe that's what we need: a set of "instances" that only host accounts, and a set of "instances" that only host communities. You could then use that account to subscribe to communities from any instance. That way, Beehaw could block content from instances they don't like, without cutting off all of the users who happened to choose the wrong place to sign up.
Actually, under that system, there wouldn't be a need for instances to federate content with each other at all. Users could just subscribe to communities with their account, and then the users would be the ones in charge of what they see, instead of their instance choosing for them.
I think it'll take a little while to settle down, but I'd expect the communities to congregate on more permissive, well federated servers. In the short term I'm doing similar to you what you proposed, e.g. having accounts on various servers, but I expect the need for this to go away as things settle down. I already focus on a couple of instances more than others.
I do think that less permissive instances will still thrive though, although maybe not so much for general content. That may change as more granular controls and better tools emerge so it's less of an 'all or nothing' approach to federating.