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this post was submitted on 20 Aug 2023
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Spicy nuanced take: the definition of rape has become a spectrum, encompassing violent, overwhelming force to nonviolent deception and everything in between. So the quoted statement can be correct in some scenarios, but wrong in others.
If you're the victim of a violent assailant, you can and should be able to use any amount of force necessary, up to including deadly force, to escape. But turning up and wasting some dude because he stealthed you last week is unquestionably murder.
Self defense is a legal defense. That means the person claiming that they were acting in self defense is going to be doing that, at trial, in front of a jury. That means they have been charged with murder and the jury has to decide whether the defendant was acting reasonably when they killed them. What that means specifically, depends on jurisdiction.
They could also be guilty of a lesser crime than first degree murder. There are knowing, reckless, and acting under extreme duress versions of homicide in most places. All of which still carry jail time.
Having argued self defense in front of a jury, I think it should always be an option for them so long as it makes some kind of sense for the facts.
It's not self defense of immediate threat has ended. You can't take retributive action after the fact and call it self defense.
Okay, I'll take a shot at this: I assert that you can and that the laws should be updated to account for that fact.
You go ahead a assert that all you want in a courtroom, see how far you get.
If I was in court for killing a rapist, what makes you think I would care about going to jail at that point? The system would still be wrong for doing it regardless.
Did you know that legal does not equal moral, just or true?
So if you successfully flee from danger, and then put yourself back in danger for the explicit purpose of killing someone, that's okay?
If you successfully build a strawman, will it come alive and sing and dance?
How is what they said a strawman? You said laws should be updated to allow retribution.
Because no one is talking about purposefully putting oneself back in danger. That's logically impossible because the rapist put you in a situation where you are always in danger, not just from them but the community at large.
Burdening rape victims with the responsibility of avoiding their rapist over something done to them inherently puts their life in danger.
It's not always possible to avoid the rapist. Most rapists are people you know. What do you do when you have to interact with them at work? At school? At home?
What happens when you run into them at the store?
Because that's the nightmare those rape apologist bitches are asking for. Entrenching the rights of rapists to act without consequences by shouldering responsibility for the situation on the victim.
Like what all evil people do.
And I will NOT support it. Ever. Rape victims have a unilateral right to kill their rapists and no one with any shred of humanity or decency will deny that. Deny it, and you're a bad person. Period.
You are not in danger from the community at large because one person committed a crime. That’s asinine logic. You’re speaking from intense paranoia to justify hunting down someone that wronged you. Like the cop pigs that idolize the Punisher, you don’t care about justice, just assuaging your own violent tendencies with a more socially acceptable target.
Tell that to the poor girl who was raped in Stuebenville.
Whose house was burned down because she came forward and the backwater shithole she lived in decided football money was more important than her life.
Tell that to literally any rape victim anywhere.
Tell that to people who in some countries today risk being beaten to death by their own fathers and brothers for shaming the family by getting raped.
You are a despicable piece of shit.
And you prove my point that opposing a victim's unilateral right to murder their rapist in the name of opposing vengeance or whatever the hell excuse you conjure up when it's convenient is rape apologia.
Holy fuck. You actually believe all that dumb shit those movies millennials grew up with shoved down your throat.
Did you ever sit and think about anything anyone said to the protagonists in those movies with any critical thought whatsoever? Or did you blindly adopt the hollow, wrongheaded thinking they wanted you to have?
We both know the answer to that. And quite frankly, if all you have to appeal to are empty, hollow, trite cliches to make your point, I am not impressed.
Holy shit, the projection is real.
You know I am a survivor of this sort of thing, right? I am one of the 1 in 6 that has been sexually assaulted in my lifetime. Several times. And when I speak my words are honed in the fires of raw, hard experience, while your privileged ass clearly knows nothing about it.
I speak of granting the power of violence to rape victims because I, along with everyone who agrees with the meme, sees clearly the very real danger and very real suffering inflicted on innocent victims every day, and we recognize that their right to remove the rapist from their existence is a natural right which transcends any garbage rape culture bullshit their worthless society is peddling.
And do you know anything about Punisher? Ever read the comics? The 90's Garth Ennis run? Your whole mindset is nothing but a pre-calibrated laundry list of thought terminating cliches from that era so I am sure you are.
You ever read the Slavers arc? Where Punisher tortures cops to save human trafficking victims?
You ever read every other arc where he saves rape victims and brutally murders their rapists on the regular?
You read when he murders cops? All the time?
That's WHY we laugh at pigs for bearing the Punisher symbol and why we shake our head at you in disappointment for being so flagrantly ignorant.
You reek of privilege. Shut the fuck up.
You realize I explicitly said that in the moment to stop the act was justifiable as self defense right? My entire point was that outside of direct self defense, you should not track down people that wronged you to murder them.
Every scenario you’ve thrown out in this rant would not lead to a better outcome if they started gunning people down. It would just multiply the trauma.
And what projection? I’m not trying to justify violence against anyone. You’re so upset you don’t even know what you’re saying. You advocate not for fixing the problems that exist but creating new ones.
Btw you ever read the parts of the punisher where he says that his existence is not something to want or desire and that he only exists when justice is broken.
You know all these bits from the comics yet the overarching theme of them seems to zoom straight past you.
Maybe Count of Monte Christo or The Last of Us 2 are not too subtle to get past your close minded rage. That girl in Steubenville would likely face similar if not worse mob action had she murdered the person that was being protected based on how backwater the justice system sounds there.
You’re so caught up in justifying your bloodlust that you lose sight of actually dealing with the issues you want to solve.
Bottom line, you want to kill criminals, don’t be surprised when they take measures to kill you first. Or don’t be surprised when their clique tracks you down for a little bit of their own vengeance.
Focus your energy on something productive and therapeutic before you get yourself thrown in prison.
I'm not the one who needs to be told that. Rapists are, yet here you are getting angry at me thinking you're going to make me submit to your opinion -- you're not -- instead of reserving your words exclusively for them.
And this is because by your twisted and awful mindset, rapists are not actually a threat to the community, rape VICTIMS are, because victims are the ones who openly speak out against and challenge the basic premises of a nightmare system that subjugates them and benefits scumfucks like you at their expense.
Miss me with that shit.
Here's the only meaningful point you make before devolving into dumb revenge cliche shit, so let's examine it:
First of all, this is a strawman and it shows you don't know what you're talking about. There's no tracking involved. Most rapes are committed by people you know, so you know where they are. Even strangers are people who live in the same city or close to the area of the victim, so the victim is going to suffer the misfortune of running into them in the future anyway, and when they do, they stand the chance of the rapist using scumbags like you to protect them while they rub it in the victim's face, or raping them again, or even killing. To which your ilk say nothing, write off and demand everyone else move on from, because your objective is to never allow violence to be used in a postive light, and you will go to any lengths to do so, even protecting rapists.
That's what actually happens to rape victims, pendejo.
And you are perfectly content with that because justice to you isn't protecting victims from rape, it's protecting rapists from their victims so you don't have to critically examine your deeply held personal beliefs.
You're sick.
Holy shit, is that The Equalizer script in your hand? The Brave One's? Can't be Kill Bill; Quentin Tarantino isn't that fucking retarded.
Oh, those are the scripts you're reading from. Well, I appreciate your mask slipping.
You have nothing to offer but false accusatory bullshit toward my current mood and thought terminating cliches you literally ripped off from a book and a video game.
Honey, I've felt this way for 40 years. Do you really think you're going to change my opinion?
Do you think your hollow personal attacks or attempts to intimidate me on a federated website is going to do anything to convince anyone around you toward your way of thinking?
Or could you perhaps admit that you never actually thought about the situation on your own and you're desperately parroting dumb propaganda you watched in hopes of getting me to do what you want?
You're a fucking child. Grow up.
Do you ever read the parts where he is numb and suffers flashbacks because he has PTSD from his family being massacred?
The parts where almost everyone else around him fawns over him in thanks for saving their lives? Their families? Their entire towns?
There was an issue where a Mexican town begged for his help to save their daughters from the cartels. When he arrived, one of the women went to his room, got down on her knees and sucked his cock.
There is more positivity than darkness in Punisher comics, but you don't know about it because you don't actually know anything about vengeance, justice, or protecting victims, because you are a sheltered, pampered, spoiled brat.
Now go to your room and do your homework. Let the adults talk.
Protecting victims from rape involves dealing with the things that incentivize it before it happens. Killing people after a crime has been tried since Hammurabi. It doesn’t deter crime and we’ve had this data and analysis for quite some time now.
You’re a violent, arrogant, and fallacious person that’s wrapped their ego around this issue so tightly that you can’t even read simple statements for what’s written, constantly sliding malicious assumptions and lobbing insults. Then when faced with any pushback you accuse me of maligning you as if you have no concept of hypocrisy.
Good bye. Keep focusing on the set dressing of things like the punisher and not the actual message being conveyed. It really betrays how hollow and empty the toxic bile you’re lobbing is. If you’ve been this up your own ass for forty years then that’s a good enough sign that no one should bother interacting with you lest you snap at them.
No, protecting rape victims involves two things:
Accepting the reality of the situation and the true motives of rapists
Killing them
But it makes sense that you're actually just some anti-death penalty cultist butthurt that the existence of rape victims threatens your political agenda. It actually goes a long way toward explaining a lot of things, including why you throw rape victims -- and victims of other crimes -- under the bus for your goals. While trying and failing to morally condemn other people for disagreeing, having another moral outlook or telling you you're wrong and what you're doing is wrong.
But for the reader, let's go into the matter in some detail.
The first thing you have to understand is that this fucking assclown thinks all crimes are statistical problems and the only way to solve a crime is not to treat it as a moral issue but to lower the statistical likelihood of it even happening in the first place. A requirement for their ideology is to subjugate victims, because they treat victims fighting back to defend or avenge themselves or to, you know, stop the rapist are part of the problem. For them, it's about stopping the act of violence, no nuance, no empathy, no compassion whatsoever, and that means all people who use the tactic are equally problematic regardless of circumstances. That requires every member of the group to collectively decide to never use violence under any circumstance. You can see quite plainly why what they want simply isn't realistic and is harmful and dangerous.
Of course, normal people don't think that way, so they have to dance around this point carefully. Because they make no moral distinction between victims and rapists -- because they lack morals, honestly -- they know the end result of their ideology is that innocent victims are subjugated en masse, but they don't care about that and they don't want you to really think about what they're saying for fear you'll realize the same.
What they want is impossible and problematic because they ignore the fundamental nature of rape (and other serious crimes, but for today's book report we're focusing on rape. The admins better give me a good grade for this shit. At least hook me up with some Tylenol for putting up with this garbage. Or some good weed.🤦)
Anyway, let's parse this. The fundamental nature of rape is that it is a crime of sheer malice. Rapists do it because they're either angry at people like their victims and want revenge, they feel entitled to the bodies of other people, they get off on subjugating others, or both.
But don't listen to me, listen to the rapists themselves who will tell you at length why they did what they did. Giant trigger warning for that.
This is why it's impossible to "deal with the things that incentivize it before it happens". There's nothing incentivizing it except a rapist's own sick pleasure and determination to follow it through. The most you can do is condition boys from a young age not to rape, but that's not going to convince people with a disposition to rape (including the women who rape. Yes, women rape men sometimes). They don't care about other people. That's the whole-ass point.
The ones who rape out of a sense of entitlement are enabled and emboldened by scumfuck rape apologist dipshits like the clown I'm responding to. He already knows. He doesn't give a shit. He won't tell you that, though, but it's obvious from the way he and people like him act in these debates. If he wanted to disincentivize rape, he'd stop fucking arguing about it and only condemn the rapists, but he doesn't. By condemning the rape victims, he justifies the entitled rapist's worldview that it's partly the victim's fault, the victim has to bear culpability and responsibility regardless, and that they can do what he wants because whenever they are confronted about their behavior, enablers like him will defend the rapist by condemning the victim.
But the dude I'm responding to is an enabling piece of shit and he knows it.
Like this:
It's complete projection because guess what rape apologists like him do? Guess what he and his ilk have been doing throughout the whole thread? Some of those motherfuckers tried to use alts to win the argument.
Enablers like him are sad, pathetic, and downright dangerous, because if you ever suffer some egregious crime, he will not support you, he will defend your attacker, try to personally attack you to demoralize you, and do everything possible to stymie justice and force you to tolerate the most insane and brutal violations of your rights, your person, and possibly even your own life just to satisfy his sick and twisted ideology.
Stay away from scumfucks like him. Block him and the other apologists in the thread, do not engage.
Also in civilized countries, self defense is only valid if you've exhausted every possible opportunity to retreat.The idea of "stand your ground" laws in the US is widely to considered to contribute to a violent society rather than deter.
For example in Florida in an instance of road rage a man fired a gun at another vehicle. Since the victim has no obligation to retreat, and even had his own weapon, he simply returned fire. So there's a shootout in the middle of the street in broad daylight with innocent people around.
That stuff doesn't happen in safe societies.
Holy fuck, you're naive. Naive to the point of being a danger to the human beings around you.
Go have a read about self defense laws around the world.
America is the naive one here.
FWIW, self defense is typical a valid claim only when you are in direct and immediate danger, and that danger has to be death or grievous bodily harm. Danger or a potential harm at some nebulous time in the future--or danger at a period in the past--is not generally considered a valid reason for using lethal force. That's why women that murder their abusers often end up in prison; they typically kill their abuser when their abuser is asleep or otherwise incapacitated, rather than in the moment of being threatened or attacked. (Yes, I think that the law is wrong in that instance, given the dynamics of abusive relationships.)
Consult a lawyer for your state or province, because this shit varies from place to place.
Just... no. If you have the opportunity to kill someone while they're defenseless, you have the opportunity to leave.
So you managed to condemn and subjugate both rape and domestic violence victims in one post. I don't know if I should be horrified or impressed.
Well, that's the prosecution's claim, anyways.
But have you ever met someone that escaped from an abusive relationship? It's just not that easy. Abused people often aren't allowed to have access to money, transportation, or outside support networks. Shelters have limited space, and you can't stay there for a year while you try to get on your feet, certainly not if you have kids. You can be homeless, I guess?
No, that's terrible. Also stealthing is by definition rape in many countries.
You're talking about forcibly (deception is force) impregnating women against their will, easily one of the most vile things you can do to somebody, as flippantly as you would selling a blender on Ebay. That 100% justifies murder
To insinuate otherwise is insane and immoral.
Well... yes? I literally just said it was. And no, you cannot legally kill someone who doesn't pose an immediate grave threat to you.
Rapists always pose an immediate grave threat to their victims. It's part and parcel of being raped.
They also always are an immediate and grave threat to the community as they can, will and do rape dozens of people in their lifetime. IIRC the average is about 100 over their lifespan.
So yes, we can morally do so. The law is archaic, outdated, sexist, anti-victim and therefore needs to be ignored or repealed so social and moral progress can continue.
If you're actually suggesting that someone should be able to go out and exact vigilante justice without consequence, I'm not the one who's insane and immoral here.
If you're actually defending rape and rape apologia by appealing to 90's revenge movie cliches, you clearly are the one who is insane and immoral.
You're literally the dumb fuck in the meme insinuating that rape victims should tolerate being raped -- and the presence of their rapists -- simply to make yourself feel better.
You are insinuating rapists should be able to go out and plunder human lives without consequence.
And you are ignoring that murdering rapists (or anyone who tries to seriously harm you) is a natural human right people are born with, and that right transcends the law of any country. It is part of your heritage as a living being on this earth and you need to learn to respect it.
Honestly. 🤦
Jesus christ, you're really not getting it. I neither said or implied any of those things.
Violent assailant holding you down = rape
Stealthing = rape
Rape can cover everything down to refusing consent to a particular sexual position or activity, despite consenting to everything but. We're not disagreeing here.
Where you seem to be getting hung up is the idea that the slightest consensual breach somehow justifies homicide, even after the fact.
There exists a concept known as proportionality. A proportional response to being forcibly held against your will is all the violence you can muster. A proportional response to disagreeing with a particular act is pushing away and (assuming they relent afterwards) and leaving. Are you getting this now?
There is no such as a natural human right, and since "murder" is purely a legal concept, your statement is nonsensical.
We are thin skinned apes with less hair who evolved to develop language, technology, and civilization. Rights are privileges established by civilization. The same civilization that decided that, maybe, it's better to also establish a set of rules so that people can't just go around raping and killing each other willy nilly.
You sound like you'd rather live in an anarchist hellscape. Good luck with that.
No, you're not getting it: your position naturally extends to those conclusions because that is where your mindset is rooted in: absolutist nonviolence allows, enables, and requires the most blatant of cruelties because it is by is own nature illogical and self-defeating, and to get around its endless broken logic loops, sacrifices are made, and those sacrifices are victims who can't fight back.
This is why we reject such nonsense, and why we support a rape victim's inherent natural right to use violence to protect themselves, especially after the fact when rapists can and do taunt their victims or harm them again or others, and it's why we live under principles based on natural rights and not on your authoritarian garbage.
Let me guess: you learned about morality from DC comics and not from actually reading or thinking about it, or experiencing any of this (though I am sure you will just lie and say you did in your next response so you can win the argument).
🤣🤣🤣
Yep, called it. Authoritarian garbage.
See yourself out that way --> 🗑️
Ironic that you mentioned comics since you're the one living in a world with imaginary things that don't exist.
I'm done trying to reason with someone who thinks woo woo spirit universe whatever the fuck impulsive whims should be the guiding principle of humanity.
And now rape and its extremely serious consequences don't exist.
And not wanting to be raped or suffer the existence of a rapist is now "woo woo spirit universe whatever the fuck impulsive whims" and therefore inconsequential and invalid.
This is why we don't listen to rape apologists. That right there. They don't care about our rights, only the non existent rights of rapists, and they think victims are the ones who don't have rights and should just learn to put up with it.
Who would want to live in a world like that?
We don't need a garbage can for your sorry ass, we need a DUMP TRUCK.