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trying to convince anyone is a waste of time and the best you can hope for is to understand if there's anything in the arguments/perspectives that you don't like so that you can better understand your own.
the people who stop/avoid engaging or default to insults/snark have no substance to their views while the ones who try, do.
Look, I've already voted, and I don't hold any position of power to make any more decisions, and there's nothing productive to continuing this. My temper is my Achilles heel, and nobody has anything to gain. I've heard the arguments from the "Democrats are genociders", and I will never be convinced that the best way to protect a group of people is let their fate be decided by someone who has explicitly made clear his desire to wipe them out, and I will never not think that people in that camp are insane. They are more than welcome to go take their magical thinking to someone who will listen.
temper is an achilles heel for almost everyone and what you can gain from this is deeper understanding.
here's a quote from someone that you might hold in high regard, dr martin luther king jr, who sums up why shallow understanding is bad for all of us and also sums up the debate you've had here regarding liberal support for the harris campaign and the genocide shes enabling:
I am aware of Dr. King's quote, and I am aware that the Democrats are not some kind of paragon of progressive ideals, and I fully agree with you that they are far, FAR from ideal, and in fact are fundamentally flawed. But they ARE, as flawed as they are, the only bulwark against something far worse. If we don't agree on that, we do not agree on necessary priors, and we have nothing more to convince each other of.
again: convincing anyone should not be your goal; you will only piss yourself off if you try and especially so if they're snarky or default to insults and the point of the quote is not to paint democrats in any light.
i don't know what your views are, but i used to be a liberal and this is how i see the quote as it pertains to what's happening right now and how material like it changed my views by engaging leftists on the lemmyverse and using it to challenging my own views:
we're being forced to pick between two genocide options. yes one has a chance at being worse than the other and that's not the point here. we're told that we MUST chose between these two options to enforce the peace through the barrel of a gun.
this one applies in multiple ways but the one that both pertains to this discourse and still matters is the two genocide choices we're being forced to select is manufactured since peace through violence is automatically not viable, so going third party is a direct action that moderates don't agree with; strongly.
this speaks to the bulwark comment you shared: when they refuse to stop the genocide (or atleast attaching restrictions to the weapons) they're accelerating the issue so that we have to make a decision here and right now because "now is not the time" since the election's next week. this is intentionally done to push the narrative that "we vote now and then try to push a harris administration later" and that seems reasonable on the surface given the circumstances; but those circumstances were manufactured to force a time table to works in the genocider's favor.
also: pushing an administration on something that lobbyist work against has never worked and convincing yourself that it can only helps push to conversation towards that genocider time table.
additionally; we've been voting for the lesser evil for a few generations now and doing so has painted us into this corner of a choice between 2 genocides. there is no indications that taking the same action that we have always been taking are going to yield different results this time and this genocide along with the erosions of legal protections on a variety of issues is sufficient argument that things will continue to devolve if we keep doing the same thing as we have been doing.
a deeper understanding requires time & effort; it's much easier to skim the information to make a decision and doing so perpetuates a shallow understanding were we don't know the recent history that explains why we're being forced to chose between 2 genocides.
when people of shallow understanding get together because their views align it creates an environment where dissension is not tolerated; especially when it's properly educated and informed because that creates a counter reality with enough substance to rival the shallow understanding groupthink. the number of people who only skim the information will always vastly outnumber the people who put the time & effort in and that creates a world where there's an "obvious" right answer from the majority's perspective and the few weirdos who have learned of that counter reality are just silly because they won't accept "common sense."
I agree with you that we are being forced to choose between 2 genocides. Knowledge of that situation doesn't change that fact. Awareness of being between a rock and a hard place doesn't get you out of the trap. But you've heard this again and again, and I've heard THIS again and again. Correctly identifying a problem is not the same thing as having a solution. I applaud your dedication to the ideal of seeking a third path. You are trying to show me the problem, but I'm well aware of it. I don't even disagree with you that it IS a problem. I, in fact, agree with every single reason you've given for the decision you've made. I simply believe that the action you're taking is totally futile and counterproductive, and won't achieve any of your stated goals. You don't agree - that's fine. Do what you like. I'm waiting for a proposal with even a passing chance of success. I'm not even waiting, as Dr. King says, for a more convenient season. I'm waiting for a plan that will WORK. Dr. King was advocating for direct action which would have the possibility of success. Dr. King said that after he'd built a movement of millions of followers. After he'd organized massive marches. After he'd won the hearts and spirits of so many. He was talking about real action he could take. He wasn't advocating martyring oneself in a completely futile gesture with a small number of his friends.
knowing that you're in a trap is only a start and understanding the problem is a necessary step before you create a solution.
i haven't shared any of my decisions or goals with you besides trying engage with someone with different views and sharing how i think we can best benefit from that engagement, so saying it's "totally futile," "counterproductive" or that "it won't achieve anything" can only be presumptive at best.
if you can share those goals or decisions i can try to set the record straight in the hopes of learning what it was i shared that gave you the impression that they were goals and decisions.
and yes, we disagree that's why i engaged you and we're not trying to convince each so the discourse hasn't devolved into gotchas, snark, or insults that defines contemporary american political discourse. i'm getting something out of it and i hope you are too.
You did not explicitly declare your goals, but we wouldn't be having this discussion if one of them wasn't ending the genocide in Gaza.
I'd further speculate you want to put an end to the 2 party oligarchy and allow people to have choices that more closely align with their values without forced compromise on important issues.
You may have more, but I'd venture these are two primary ones. And I don't think either of these are achievable through not voting for Harris this election. Because nearly every option for political activity is going to evaporate in an administration that has absolutely NO respect whatsoever for the rule of law or political activity - doesn't even see the need to pretend. Look no further than what happened to Hong Kong to see what happens when the imperfect democracy is replaced with autocratic control.
Those aren't my goals but I would very much like to see them.
That vast majority of information skimmers have guaranteed that the genocide is going to happen no matter what you, I, or the people who put in the time & effort do.
Likewise our political duopoly in this country is too well financed and experienced to expect it change anytime soon.
My goal is to learn how to not perpetuate & participate in the same generational violence & genocide that my ancestors in this country experienced and is now being visited upon by the gazans and at the hands of the same system and people.
One of the things I have learned so far is that no real leftist believes that voting third party is going to prevent the genocide; like me they're doing it for their own reasons so it's clear that the information skimmers are pushing a straw man that says otherwise.
The manner in which the genocide takes place is the only thing we can influence; but not in the way it's understood by the information skimmers. The actions of the Biden & Harris make it clear that they're willing to risk it all to support Israel in its goals for the genocide; despite whatever their words suggest; and Trump's ineptitude along with this demonstrated disinterest & ignorance in foreign affairs also guarantees that Israel will achieve their goals for the genocide.
The question then becomes: will the democrats be allowed to sugar coat it and give token gestures to give Israel the political room it needs to achieve their goals for the genocide past January or will the Republicans be allowed to create policies to simply ignore it; either action is still reaching the same end.
Given that this is the same system and people that my ancestors knew: I foresee a future where gazans continue to exist in native american like reservations in Israel whose populations have been genocided into numbers small enough to guarantee that they will never be able resist the boot on their collective necks ever again in the future.
I also believe that the idf's wanton destruction over generational wealth building capital like real estate; a workforce; and an economy imposes a new generational poverty that guarantees that the future surviving gazans will be controlled by Israeli government purse strings; like the native americans experience with the American government's purse strings.