this post was submitted on 17 Sep 2024
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Showerthoughts
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Yeah, I wanted to be the kind of person that drinks coffee like everyone else around me back then. I didn't choose that want. That desire was imposed on me from the outside.
It still was your choice, people regularly go against the societal norms and desires imposed from the outside. Like, I never started smoking, although both of my parents and a lot of my peers did.
No, I disagree. I didn't choose not to start smoking. I simply never developed the desire to start. It's not something I decided against my natural preferences.
It's besides the point anyway. Even if I could choose to do or not do something it would still be about what I want which aligns with the title of the post.
You can't do something you don't want unless someone makes you do it. Even if you do something like go to the gym despite not wanting there's a greater want behind it that's pushing you to do it. In this case getting healthy and fit. This means you do want to go to the gym, you just don't like it.
The point was to illustrate a counter-example to your coffee example and that you can control (at least some) of your wants (which you previously said that one can't do). I would be curious to hear your definition of want (and have to, for that matter). You seem to be using it as an umbrella term that covers everything from physical urges to something a person thinks would subjectively benefit them.
By have to I mean obligations. You've got a meeting at noon, you have to be there. You may not want to, but you have to.
By want I mean every other voluntary action. You're thirsty and you open the fridge. There's milk, water and orange juice. Say you grab the orange juice. You did that because you wanted it. To say that you could have chosen milk or water isn't true. You didn't want those, you wanted orange juice. If you rewind the clock and open the fridge again you'd still want the orange juice. In that moment you can't do other than what you want. You can't choose to not want it. It may be than in a few years you no longer like orange juice so in thay sense your wants may change but then and there in that moment you can't act against it.
Even if you decide against your preferences to prove a point you'd still be acting according to your wants; you want to prove me wrong and thus you grab the water. That's still doing what you wanted to do.
If by "want" you mean "everything you do that you don't have to" then your post is kinda useless. Yeah, you do things you have to and things you don't have to, that's obvious, cause there is no other category of actions.
Well I can't think of a voluntary action that people do for any other reason than either wanting to do it or having to do it. That's the point of the post. Every example I have been given so far is either of those two. It feels like we're free do to what ever, but in reality we're only free to do what we want and nobody picked their wants.
Nobody is forcing me to reply to this message. I do it because I want to. If I didn't want to I wouldn't but I also don't know why I enjoy having these debates. I didn't choose to enjoy it, I just do.
Just give me an example of something you do or could do that you don't have to but also don't want to. I don't think you can. You're not free to do that.
The problem is with you definition of want. You've formulated it based on the conclusion you've wanted to reach - that there is no other reason to do things, not based on what you actually think it is. That's why I asked for your definition - to try to find a counter example, without you moving the goalpost and saying that that's actually a want as well.
Pick any dictionary definition for it.
Well, I neither have to nor have any strong desire to wake up early on a Saturday, but I still do because of a force of habit, how does that fit into your definition?
It's involuntary action. Not something you choose to do.
The title is essentially an argument against free will. The illusion that you could have done otherwise. Waking up early out of habit is no indication of free will to me.
I wasn't arguing for free will, I was arguing against your argument, and, as you can see, it is flawed.
When it comes to free will - in a situation where you have to make a choice it doesn't matter that post-factum you can say that you couldn't have chosen otherwise due to internal and external factors, what matters is that in the moment you still have to make that choice, and no one (oftentimes not even you) can really predict the outcome.
Also, determinism is flawed simply because quantum mechanics exists, which is decidedly indeterministic and deals with probabilities, and there are phenomenons where it affects things on a macro scale.