this post was submitted on 14 Jul 2024
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Politics
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This is true, but sometimes candidates are also themselves threats to democracy.
Is a vote to abolish democracy, democracy?
If you believe Democracy is simply a process, with no moral superiority to non-democratic alternatives, then you'd probably say, "yes".
If you believe Democracy is a morally-imperative state that underpins freedom to self-determine as a group, then you'd probably say, "no".
@t3rmit3 So political violence is justifiable when democracy is at risk, right. What happens if the side abolishing democracy decides that political violence can be justified for them too? How can you save democracy this way? We legitimate political violence in order to justify democracy? Will it still be a democracy if the elected candidate can be gunned down legitimately? What about if the candidate has the biggest chance of winning?
And also, how can you justify democracy as the better option in front of non-democratic states that are also making use of political violence to repress their opponents? Don't you think these countries would be more determined in their suppressions when they see that the good guys are also doing it?
And last, but not least, does that freedom to self-determine as a group also involve becoming politically violent against your opponent? To which extent is this still a democracy and not a fight for power by all means?
Obviously, yes? If this was an outside group attempting to invade and impose authoritarian rule, I don't think anyone would be debating this point, but because it's an internal one...
Hmm, you mean like has already happened?
Are you under the impression that democracy was always the way that governments operated, until displaced? Authoritarianism (whether monarchy, feudalism, fascism, or otherwise) has to be actively dismantled in order to create the space for democracy.
Assassinations are an action that occurs to protect a given status quo. They occur in or out of democracies. They are orthogonal to Democracy.
Political violence by the state is different than political violence by the people.
What do you think Project2025 already is?
I'm not arguing that this person was right to do what they did (or tried to do), I'm arguing that this rhetoric of the unacceptability of political violence is just the State protecting its own power, and its own position as the "legitimate" arbiter of political violence.
@t3rmit3 My server is dead today, so I cannot reply from my main account.
I gasped for a moment, but yes, we are talking about internal violence committed by a group of people inside that country.
How exactly has it already happened, more specifically, during this election? Did anyone try to shoot Biden or any Democrat in this campaign?
This is highly debatable. The nazis, fascists, legionnaires did a lot of politically motivated crimes in order to get in power. Does that make them the protectors of the status quo? What about various terrorist organizations around the world? What about people trying to kill Hitler? Anyway, I won't go on with this because it is more of a separate discussion.
But do you think that a state that doesn't have this ability of protecting its own power and its own monopoly on violence would be a safer, freer and more just to its people than a state that has it? Do you think that such a state could protect marginalized, smaller and weaker groups better than a state that has this monopoly of violence?
January 6th was a massive occurrence of political violence, involving hundreds of right wing agitators and would-be assassins, had they managed to actually get ahold of any congresspersons. They literally were chanting to kill the vice president.
Yes, absolutely. Without a monopoly on violence, it would be hard pressed to be anything but that, because it would have to actively vie for the power to do those things.
States are intrinsically hierarchical, and hierarchy doesn't like sharing power. It will grab/create more and more authority, using any means (but mainly violence). The entire history of the 20th century (and it's looking like the 21st as well) is one giant chronicle of state violence against minorities, other states, and any citizens who disagree with the first 2.
I think you've got the question backwards. States are the worst instigators of violence against marginalized, smaller, and weaker groups, and when they do this, it takes massive wars to stop them (or, as we see in Gaza, they just don't get stopped).
Imperialism, Colonialism, Fascism, Authoritarianism... Those aren't words primarily used to describe the actions of non-state actors.
@t3rmit3 I was talking about the current elections. I do not think that that guy's act was a specific act of revenge for the January 6th insurrection at the Capitol, especially if that guy was a Republican registered voter. Otherwise, he could have acted sooner instead of waiting for a presidential term to finish. The guy's attempt was specifically due to Trump's current nomination as a candidate. That's why I asked you how did it already happen during this election process, not in the past.
I think you might not be that different from a Republican on this one :) even though for a different reason.
States are also the ones using public money to fund healthcare centers, centers for people in need (eldery, women escaping abusive relationships, unwanted children), they are also making the public space more accessible for people with disabilities, they are providing public transport options for people unable to ensure themselves this option, sometimes even providing means of communications (through mail for example). Of course, you could point out that there is more work to be done in some cases and in many countries, but it's still an effort in the right direction and, imo, these sometimes provide better options than letting individuals work by themselves in order to solve these problems.
If you'd ask me, I would feel safer in this regard when accessing these services provided by the state instead of relying on a fringe (sometimes) armed group, looking to gain power for themselves. But that's just me, I guess...
The change of one administration to the next does not erase events from the previous one. This guy was a conservative, given statements from his classmates saying that explicitly, so obviously it was not in revenge for J6; I'm not sure where you got the idea I was arguing that? I'm arguing that political violence (by Republicans) exists in the status quo, prior to this other Republican's actions.
Republicans are mostly neolibs, same as Democrats. But yes, LibLeft philosophies like Anarchism and LibRight ones like Libertarianism both tend to be suspicious of government, and AuthLeft philosophies like Marxist-Leninism, Centrist philosophies like Neoliberalism, and AuthRight ones like Fascism, all are big on loving (their) governments.
You are seeing states do those things, and presuming (I'm guessing based on where you live) that those actions are therefore the actions of states. They're not, they're the actions of a community. When you belong to a community that a state supports, it provides those things that all communities provide. When you don't, they don't.
Are you under the impression that the only alternative to "Modern Western State Governments" is "individuals work[ing] by themselves"?
I hate to break it to you, but states are just very large armed groups, the legitimacy of which is entirely determined by their strength of arms. Israel kills far more people than Hamas, under at very least equally-questionable tactics, but Israel is a "legitimate" government because they have enough guns (and enough friends with guns) to force others to acknowledge them as such. If Israel had no friends and a weaker military than their enemies, they would be considered a "rogue" (or as you call it, "fringe") state. This is precisely why "pariah" states pursue weapons programs like nuclear arms; that lends them legitimacy in the Statist, Neoliberal world order.
They're clearly state actions where I live, the organizations they do are politically represented, they get funds from the state budget, they function according to politically voted legislation etc.
The same politicians that vote for them can also reallocate parts of the budget to and from the military, the police force or any other fields.
We do have private initiatives as well, supported directly by the community with money, who govern themselves, who are responsible for every penny they spend, but they're different from the state controlled entities. The legislators generally do not vote dedicated legislation for them, but for the category they fall into (e.g. non-government organization for that matter). You rarely see legislators adopting laws for one specific private entity, if ever when it comes to smaller such entities.
Anything that involves private initiative is individuals working for themselves. If it's not voted by the elected officials, paid from taxpayer money, it's called private initiative - so there is an individual/some individuals deciding the finance and governance and other sensitive issues of the organization themselves.
That is the way the international system works, of course. But on the other hand, this legitimacy they are provided allows them to worry less about their security and spend their money on the actual social services needed for a state to function. There are, of course, rogue states (yes, you can safely call them that way as well), that choose to terrorize their people instead. But politically motivated violence, whichever side it is coming from, in a country that calls itself the leader of the free and democratic world, does not help in making them less likely to do so. Quite the contrary.