this post was submitted on 26 Jul 2023
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I hope there will be a time when we talk about American, European, African and Asian war crimes. But the article is about the investigation of russian war crimes.
So let's focus on this topic for now.
This article is literally (as in I quoted this directly from the article) about the US Pentagon refusing to cooperate with the ICC as any cooperation could be seen as legitimization when the ICC goes after US war criminals.
Would say it is fair to bring up the US refusal to recognize the ICC (we are on Ukraine community so slightly offtopic but no fuzz) but do you have anything to say about the investigation of Russian war crimes which this presumably will help with? Also your rhetoric is such that it sounds like you want to minimize them while trying to claim the US is "harboring so many".
My "rhetoric" is mentioning facts. Russia commited hundreds of documented within weeks. Where are they now? 20k? Even more cases?
And yet here you are feeling so weak that someone daring to mention US war crimes in an article about US refusing to cooperate with the ICC for a long time because they are afraid of being persecuted for their war crimes, too, is perceived by you as spinning narratives and using rhetorics to minimize Russian war crimes? C'mon... in which way does any war crime get lessened by another one commited?
Oh, yeah I know. There is exactly one way to lessen a war crime: crying whataboutism every time it is mentioned. So good work there. This really helps so people that intentionally lied to their allies to get them to illegally invade Iraq and kill hundreds of thousands are staying untouched.
And surprise, it doesn't actually change anything about Russian war crimes either way. In fact finally convictim US war criminals would help in bringing Russian war criminals to justice. As is would deprive Russia of the basically single one talking point in their propaganda and a legal precedence (Reminder: US and Russia are both in the same legal situation of having signed but never ratified the ICC agreements, to then later withdraw their signature, too).
Well, it is good to get some indication that you're maybe not just trying to be an apologist for Russia after all.
I would suggest you think about how it comes across when you come in shouting about US war crimes on a Lemmy community about Ukraine in an article than concerns how USA is helping with the effort to investigate Russian war crimes though. Like I said it does warrant mention but when it is all you manage to talk about it looks pretty bad for you.
No, I will not think about it.
I know it's hard to break that Russian/USSR conditioning after countless decades and that for this reason the narrative of Western Europeans somehow also believing in Russian propaganda (although they usually never actually here it in the first palce lacking the language skills...) is very important. But that is your problem, not mine. I will not tiptoe around you because you won't grow up. Nobody sane gives a fuck about Russian lies. Seriously... not even the ones parroting that bullshit believe it, they are simply paid well for pretending.
Ukraine wants to become part of the Western world, of NATO and EU. So they need to adapt and finally shed the Russian influence. We already have countries running on insane right-wing populism and either constructing every disagreement as an attempt to destroy them or (when lacking those) just inventing some as the only means to stay relevant. We don't need one more in the form of Ukraine denouncing every valid criticism as Russian influence, so it's really time to get a grip on things. Not everything is about you. Acknowledging that there is a world (also with issues) beyond Ukraine and Russia does not mean we are forgetting about it. I know the brain-washing is hard to fix, but contrary to what you were told, the West is neither moronic, brain-damaged, stupid or lost in their decadent decay. And the sooner you get that (and also stop to just shift those narratives slightly so you can adore the US while Western Europeans are the idiots/corrupts/weaklings/whatever the latest Russian narratives told you), the easier everything will be.
Not surprising you wont, since you're also extremely condescending without having earned it in the slightest. Russian propaganda is being produced in english as well as other languages besides just Russian too but I guess you never heard of RT and the sort.
That said, misinformed rants like these don't have to be connected to present day Russia. People engage in them also thanks to deep rooted political ideologies dating back to the days of the Soviet Union and so on.
Yes, I heard about them. But that's exactly my point. They get banned here in domestic translation and that's it. And as most people are not speakign Russian there is no way to get flooded by their bullshit narratives in other ways. You often need to belong to a very small group of morons communicating their bullshit in usually closed groups (and given those types of people it's no coincidence they smoothly transitioned from population replacement to anti-vax and covid dictatorship to Russia-did-nothing-wrong bullshit; next will be probably flat earth... or some classic anti-semitic conspiracy to go back to their roots) to get the hand-made trnaslations of that propaganda.
That's different for countries on Russias side of the iron curtain. And sorry, but at some point being told to stop believing Russian propaganda narrative X when in reality that accusation is also the first time you heard that piece of bullshit mentioned in the first place again and again by Eastern Europeans is tiring and shows a very accurate picture of who constantly hangs on Russia's lips and can't stop swallowing up their crap. All while also accusing others...
If you find my frustration after 1½ years of this is "sounding condescending"... Again, your problem, not mine.
We have gone very far from what prompted this. Russia's ability to influence should not be overestimated and it should not be underestimated either. History has shown time and time again that it is relatively easy to get vast amounts of people to believe the most stupid bullshit. Most recently in the United States and in Russia. Such efforts need to be guarded against.
To bring things closer to what the subject of this community is, unfortunately one way this is becoming a significant problem right now is with the Republicans in America, the next president may well be inclined to stop supporting Ukraine.
And there is your problem: You actually mention "closer to the subject of this cummunity" and the US in the same breath. No, the closest problem for Ukraine (Russia aside, but they are so far gone there is nothing we can do about them but supporting their military defeat at this point) sit in Ukraine and in Ukraine neighbours. They can't shed the ex-USSR then Russian conditioning and the fairy tales of the weak West.
It is no coincidence that those people all only managed to shift the narrative slightly. So now it's the US that is their savior while all the useless Western European countries are weak and listening to Russian narratives. Exactly like they learned for decades from Russia belittle anyone and only accepting the US as their peer (because their propaganda doesn't work without a dangerous enemy).
And so there are mainly two big groups in Eastern Europe: Brain-washed people that believe Russias bullshit, and brain-washed people hating Russia and still believing the bullshit as long as it's a story about those idiots in Western Europe.
And sorry, you need to wake up yourself. That's nothing others can do for you. The support for Ukraine's fight against Russian occupiers is big enough to overlook the obvious bullshit going on with Ukraine and other Eastern European countries pushing bullshit about their actual allies in Europe. And it's big enough to mostly overlook the constant delusional talk about Westeners beliebving in Russian propaganda narratives they haven't even heard about yet. For now...
PS (personal opinion only): Also no, no US president will actually stop the Ukraine support. The whole republican party may talk loudly but the actual US problem is corporate control over legislature and government. And the military-industrial complex is huge, influential and booming because of the Western support of Ukraine.
Read what you wrote... This does not really make much sense and mostly reads like the primary school level "analysis" that you see thrown around about how all Russians are the same and have always been the same. They actually currently do have a dangerous enemy in Russia so they have not needed to invent one at all. That much is obvious. They have not alienated themselves from the western european countries that are helping them in this fight but I'm sure most reasonable people would agree that has been happening pretty slowly... There are some valid reasons for that but from the POV of the Ukrainian people it absolutely makes sense that they are the ones advocating a stronger and faster response.
Thank you! Couldn't have said it better.
@73ms
Errado