this post was submitted on 10 Jan 2025
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OH YEAH THEYRE TALKING ABOUT IT NOW

Please do not remove mods, really sorry for the Google AMP link, but this is a "subscribers only" blocked article on CNN that for some reason AMP just straight up bypasses and opens fine.

Direct link: https://www.cnn.com/2025/01/10/us/jury-nullification-luigi-mangione-defense/index.html.

Edit 1: updated title, CNN changed it on me

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[–] [email protected] 71 points 23 hours ago (2 children)

Repost of my own comment in a different community:

I would say that jury nullification isn’t just some accident of the legal system, but the primary reason we have juries in the first place.

Judges will say that juries are meant to just decide the simple facts of the case. But what sane person would ever design a system that assigns 12 random untrained nobodies to do that task? If all that mattered was judging the facts of the case, why not have 12 legal scholars instead? Why isn’t “juror” a profession, just like being a lawyer or judge is? If we want people to just apply the letter of the law to the facts of a case, why not fill juries with professionals, each who had a legal degree, and who have sat as jurors hundreds of times? Judging evidence and reading law is a skill. And it’s one that can be educated on, trained, and practiced. Why do we have amateur juries, when professional juries would clearly do their purported job so much better? Or why not just do what some countries do, and have most or all trials decided solely by judges? What exactly is the point of a jury? Compared to everything else in the courtroom, the jurors, the ones actually deciding guilt or innocence, are a bunch of untrained amateurs. On its face, it makes no damn sense!

No, the true reason, and really the only reason, we have juries at all is so that juries can serve to judge both the accused AND the law. Juries are meant to be the final line of defense against unjust laws and prosecution. It is possible for a law itself to be criminal or corrupt. Legislative systems can easily be taken over by a tiny wealthy or powerful minority of the population, and they can end up passing laws criminalizing behaviors that the vast majority of the population don’t even consider to be crimes.

The entire purpose of having a jury is that it places the final power of guilt and innocence directly in the hands of the people. Juries are meant as a final line of defense against corrupt laws passed by a minority against the wishes of the greater majority. An unaccountable elite can pass whatever ridiculous self-serving laws they want. But if the common people simply refuse to uphold those laws in the jury box, those laws are meaningless.

THAT is the purpose of a jury. It is the only reason juries are worth the trouble. A bunch of rank amateurs will never be able to judge the facts of a case better than actual trained legal scholars with years of experience. But by empowering juries, it places the final authority of the law firmly in the hands of the people. That is the value of having a jury at all.

Jury nullification is not just some strange quirk or odd loophole in our justice system. It’s the entire reason we have juries in the first place.

[–] [email protected] 6 points 7 hours ago

Also a guard against corruption. It's much harder to keep bribing random jurors than getting and keeping "Jurors" that you can control. See the US Supreme Court as a cautionary tale.

[–] [email protected] 11 points 15 hours ago

It's also because jurors are asked to judge the probability of something happening, not just whether it happened, so it's not something that you can leave to professionals because judging motive etc requires a representative sample of the population and not some remote legal class of citizens.

[–] [email protected] 46 points 22 hours ago (6 children)

Hmm, maybe convict him, but give him no penalty and no imprisonment?

That's a thing, right?

[–] [email protected] 3 points 7 hours ago

I think the judge decides the penalty after the jury decides on guilt.

[–] [email protected] 14 points 14 hours ago

Is if you're Trump

[–] [email protected] 8 points 16 hours ago (1 children)
[–] [email protected] 6 points 11 hours ago* (last edited 11 hours ago) (2 children)

**Hmm, maybe convict him, but give him no penalty and no imprisonment?

That's a thing, right?**

[–] [email protected] 1 points 7 hours ago

That's was probably a dad joke. And maybe you missed it on purpose but will point it out anyway.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 11 hours ago

Idk, but I hope so!

[–] [email protected] 20 points 21 hours ago (2 children)

We the jury find the defendant GUILTY! We sentance him to a fine of $1 and a lifetime membership to United Healthcare!

( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

[–] [email protected] 5 points 10 hours ago

With all claims pre-approved and irrevocable.* Because you know these fuckers will try a fast one.

[–] [email protected] 11 points 14 hours ago

lifetime membership to United Healthcare!

So, the death penalty?

[–] [email protected] 18 points 22 hours ago

Yeah, I think that happened to some really important guy a few days back.

[–] [email protected] 8 points 21 hours ago (2 children)

I believe the jury decides guilt or innocence, but the judge determines the sentence... In most cases

[–] [email protected] 4 points 15 hours ago

It depends on the state. Some states have a full second trial with a new jury in order to determine the sentencing.

Sometimes it's just a tacked on part of the original verdict.

And the rest of the time it's just the Judge who can do almost anything provided the sentence stays within certain parameters.

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[–] [email protected] 31 points 1 day ago

“I wonder whether a jury, whether they get impaneled, really buys his message, hates health care so much that they say, ‘Hey, look, we saw what you did. We know what you did, but we’ll excuse it,’” CNN Legal Analyst Joey Jackson said last month.

Sure, 'hating healthcare' is the issue here...

[–] [email protected] 17 points 21 hours ago (2 children)

Honestly, I'm amazed Luigi hasn't had an "accident" in jail

[–] [email protected] 2 points 7 hours ago

Nah, that would make a martyr. If anything he's the safest guy in the place.

[–] [email protected] 27 points 19 hours ago (1 children)

Not sure if you refer to this accident, but Jeffrey knew too much and was a risk. Luigi is not a risk anymore, his followers are. And they would probably be fueled by his death.

[–] [email protected] 11 points 17 hours ago (1 children)

Yeah; he's already become evangelised to an absolutely insane degree globally that the ruling class didn't see coming, making any rash moves, especially any that would martydom him, would backfire.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 10 hours ago

Saint Mangione! The patron saint of medical benefits.

[–] [email protected] 176 points 1 day ago (5 children)

Jury nullification is an important logical conclusion of American jurist rules. This post will stay up.

[–] [email protected] 5 points 7 hours ago

Thank you, Based Mod. Not every day, we see one.

[–] [email protected] 10 points 10 hours ago

It's literally the reason to have juries. It's the last line of defense against unjust laws.

[–] [email protected] 13 points 22 hours ago* (last edited 22 hours ago)
[–] [email protected] 30 points 1 day ago
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[–] [email protected] 146 points 1 day ago (22 children)

Let's not forget, maybe, just maybe, this guy is absolutely innocent, was nowhere near the crime at the time, and had nothing to do with it.

And the cops, in their over zeal to catch someone, anyone, found a poor unlucky person who looks like the guy in the crime scene photos and handily fabricated the rest of the physical evidence. It certainly wouldn't be the first time.

Seriously, a written statement admitting guilt? How likely is that? Anyway, this is what I think is happening. And I doubt the real truth will ever be known, sadly.

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[–] [email protected] 50 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago) (5 children)

Jury nullification doesn't really exist. It's just an attempt to label something the jury decides that you believe goes against the law. The fact is, the jury is part of the law, and the jury can decide what parts of it are relevant, are enforceable in the case, and which need special considerations. Complaining about "jury nullification" is complaining about one of the fewest democratic elements in the judicial system, a system that on its own is almost completely autocratic and as such that much more susceptible to the formation of oligarchies and nepotism from within.

[–] [email protected] 39 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago) (20 children)

It's actually the conclusion of 2 things:

  • Double Jeopardy means your cannot try someone twice for the same crime
  • A juror cannot be held accountable for a decision they make

If both hold true, then logically, a jury can make a decision against legal precedent, without fear of repercussion - unless they are paid/coerced to come to that conclusion, and the defendant - once cleared by by a jury - cannot be tried again.

This means that legally, a jury can say GTFO to jury instructions set by judges.

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