this post was submitted on 26 Aug 2024
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“BD” refers to Franco-Belgian comics, but let's open things up to include ALL Euro comics and GN's. Euro-style work from around the world is also welcome!

* BD = "Bandes dessinées"
* BDT = Bedetheque
* GN = graphic novel
* LBK = Lambiek
* LC = "Ligne claire"

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So for me, as I stumble and bumble my way through learning French (mostly through DuoLingo, hey), I'm often thinking about this issue.

Now-- on the surface of things, Modern English is almost exclusively comprised of German & French, and almost every word in these sentences are specific examples of such in terms of direct etymology. Which is a big part of why I've typically regarded French & German as my sibling languages. It's a nice, bright thought, anyway!

Let's take the modern English word "fight"-- WP claims:

From Middle English fighten, from Old English feohtan (“to fight, combat, strive”), from Proto-West Germanic *fehtan, from Proto-Germanic *fehtaną (“to comb, tease, shear, struggle with”), from Proto-Indo-European *peḱ- (“to comb, shear”).

My point is that there's so many ways to run with that over time... in any language whatsoever! Indeed, IIRC there was a "fisten" variation which meant an entirely different thing in earlier German.

But, "shear?" Yes, yes back in my schoolyard days, I wanted to shear my opponent like a little lost lamb, but... I don't think that's right.

So here's my point, assuming you've lasted this far. Modern German in fact split from modern English maybe around ~~800AD? And Modern French, around... perhaps slightly earlier than the Norman Conquest (1066), meaning that even though Modern English is absolutely PACKED full of French & German pronyms, we can't just assume they mean the same thing, anymore, as with the examples above.

It sort of breaks my heart, but it's just reality, non?

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[–] [email protected] 0 points 2 months ago (1 children)

Semantic drift always makes such a mess of cognates. One of my best examples of that is an etymological triplet in Portuguese:

  • ⟨feitiço⟩ spell, witchcraft - inherited from Latin ⟨facticius⟩ artificial, made up
  • ⟨factício⟩ artificial, made up - reborrowed from Latin ⟨facticius⟩
  • ⟨fetiche⟩ fetish - borrowed from French ⟨fétiche⟩ fetish, in turn borrowed from Portuguese ⟨feitiço⟩

All three were originally the same word with the same meaning. Borrowing here, borrowing there, and now they're three different words with completely different meaning.

So here’s my point, assuming you’ve lasted this far. Modern German in fact split from modern English maybe around ~~800AD?

A good reference date would be 450 or so, when the Jutes, Angles and Saxons invaded Britannia. It's what created the geographical barrier between Germanic speakers, that allowed English to diverge considerably more from continental varieties (Frisian, Dutch, German "dialects" [actually local languages]) than it could otherwise.

For the French borrowings it's complicated because they didn't enter the language only once as a "nice set", but across centuries. And they weren't from a single Gallo-Romance variety but two (Norman and French).

And often the very fact that they've been borrowed changes the meaning. A good example of that is French ⟨porc⟩ pig, pork; it can be used for both the animal and the meat, but once English borrowed it as ⟨pork⟩ it was mostly used for the meat only, with then the old word ⟨pig⟩ being specialised to the animal.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 2 months ago

Sorry for the late reply, but I love it!

[–] [email protected] 0 points 2 months ago (1 children)

It's a bit sad that some of those languages are gradually disappearing with globalization.

Dialects, at least where I leave, are hardly spoken anymore, except by the older population. And tons of new words and neologisms use their English counterpart instead of being translated into my language (Italian).

On the one hand, we're getting closer to a world unified by a single language, where everyone can understand each other. On the other hand, I feel like we're losing something on the way there.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 2 months ago

And the most vulnerable of those languages are always the ones that people simply don't even notice to exist, because they aren't associated with some independent government. Ask people about Polish, they'll point to a country in a map; but if you ask them about Sorbian, they'll simply say "there's no Sorbia country". Same deal if you ask them about Sardinian, Galician, Occitan, Low German varieties, etc.

It's never caused solely by easier communication though; it has to do with the loss of the sense of identity between the speakers of those languages. Often forced - like a Franco or a Vargas telling you "use the country language or we're going after you", but sometimes through "softer" means (like turning a blind eye to linguistic prejudice).

Sorry for rambling about this. This topic is emotionally relevant for me.