this post was submitted on 20 Aug 2023
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Why do you want a middle class? So you have a class to aspire to and a class to denigrate? Why do you want classes?!
Profoundly internalized hierarchy all over this thread.
Classes will always exist if there are limited resources. Which there currently is and always will be for the foreseeable future. The gaps, size, number of, and mobility between them can vary though. But scarcity will always create at least two classes.
Did you know we throw away more food than it would take to feed the hungry? That there are more empty homes than homeless people? Capitalism incentivizes scarcity, so it is artificially created. The only thing stopping us from achieving post scarcity immediately is working out the logistics, but those in power don't want that to happen, as they are currently high up in society.
As an extension to this comment, digital media is a perfect example of pure artificial scarcity. You can at least imagine a world where food or homes are scarce, it's not our world, but it can be imagined. The same is not true of distributing digital media, and yet it's still artificially scarce.
Without scarcity in capitalism things lack value. That is extremely problematic.
I mean, basic necessities? Sure. But the logistics on homes is far from just "we need to work it out." On top of that, beyond food and shelter, there are a ton of other things that are indeed scarce. Even land is scarce and I don't mean to just own. Like there are plots of land that are more desirable than others and people want those places. There's no logistics that will solve "everyone will live where they want." And let's even just look at computer chips. They're literally scarce. There's so much more than just feeding people enough to survive (cause I'm doubting everyone wants to be vegan cause that's the kind of food we have more than enough of, and not even for a well balanced diet, just to not starve to death).
So no, some things are "manufactured" scarcity. But there is plenty beyond just that shallow level of thinking that is actually scarce.
"post-scarcity" in this context doesn't mean "everyone gets everything they want whenever they want it". Maybe I want to own a planet, but there aren't enough planets to go around, and nobody actually believes in a future where everyone can get their own planet.
When talking about these things, it's best not to assume the most ridiculous interpretation of what the other person is saying. e.g instead of reading "post-scarcity" to mean "everyone gets everything all the time no matter what", read it to mean "everyone gets what they need".
also for what it's worth, I've been an ethical vegan for several years after being a die-hard meat eater and literally convincing people close to me to move away from veganism/vegetarianism exactly for health reasons (I had the same misconception you did about veganism). After actually going vegan, doing absolutely no meal planning, no exercise, no calorie counting, still eating mostly frozen food and pickup, my blood pressure as a lean 6'1 mid 20s male has gone from pre-hypertension to normal levels. I get my blood checked regularly and I'm far healthier than I was when I was downing popeyes, jersey mikes, and five guys several times a week. And I'm not just eating salads or whatever, I'm usually having vegan buffalo "chicken" or beyond burgers.
I don't advocate veganism based on health benefits (veganism is an ethical philosophy), but vegan diets are baseline much healthier than the baseline for non-vegan diets. You can't go as wrong with them as the vast majority of Americans do with their diets.
People are always going to have vision problems, so it's wrong to wear glasses.
What? You'll need to take me through the process of how to interpret that as a response to what I said.
We haven't invented glasses yet. They've never been successfully tested.
Class will always exist but it's been proven that a strong middle class is a sign of a bountiful economy that actually works for it's workers.
The shrink of the American middle class is exactly what's caused most of the economic issues in America.
We allowed our middle class to be destroyed in an attempt to raise a few of those people to the top. Because upper middle class people were duped into believing they were closer to being rich than they were to being poor
Class should absolutely be something we strive to abolish. The idea that some people deserve to benefit disproportionally from the workings of our society is nonsense.
I think they're arguing that the bigger the middle, the better. It seems like you two might be arguing the same thing. Making everyone middle is functionally equivalent to removing classes
Yeah but striving for a "middle" class implies the existence of an upper and lower class. If you're already in fantasy land (uncorrupt government) why not make the fantasy as ideal as possible? Answer: for conservatives the ideal is having an upper and lower class because conservatives seem to inherently think they deserve more than other members of society, even if the reality is that they're lower class, they need the existence of an upper class so they have someone's boots to lick. Since they're just one big idea away from being upper class obviously.
There is, and always has been. You're putting the cart before the horse. We are so far removed from removing class, it's not worth discussing. Expanding the middle class is an achievable goal, and works towards what you're talking about.
It's about as realistic as magically removing corruption in a capitalist government...
Sure, but you can work towards reducing corruption.
Impossible. In all two thousand years has never been done.
Reducing corruption? What are you smoking? It's happening right now in Ukraine, just off the top of my head.
Why are you arguing with me? I just tried to clarify the misunderstanding between you two
Didn't mean to seem argumentative and my response was probably better meant for the parent of your comment but yours had some things I wanted to mention too. Sorry if it seemed aggressive.
Wholesome AF. Enjoying the discussion.
I want a middle class so strong everyone is in it. In fact let’s get rid of the upper and lower classes
A good reminder that liberalism is based around unfounded assumptions and charlatan, unimaginative predictions of the future. Everyone used to think kings were inevitable, too.
Democracy has existed since ancient Greece and Rome
Kings are still necessary in the sense that we need someone in charge
The amazing historical and political analysis of the liberal, everyone.